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    <title>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</title>
    <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/list/send/21/</link>
    <description><![CDATA[]]></description>
    <language>EN</language>
    <pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 14:19:06 -0400</pubDate>
    <lastBuildDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 14:19:06 -0400</lastBuildDate>
    <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
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    <ttl>600</ttl>
    <item>
      <title>Boulder G'zone is not water resistant, what is?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,16461,16461/#msg-16461</link>
      <author>Runargorun</author>
      <description><![CDATA[For safety reasons I like to keep a cell phone in my PFD and prefer a water resistant phone that requires minimal additional protection. I thought the Boulder G'zone through Verizon was the answer but it proves to fall short in every way. It's not really water-resistant and when I have talked to Verizon about my Boulder that drowned the first time it got wet they say 'Well, it's not THAT water-resistant...&quot;  I bought a second one to replace the drowned one and within months a flimsy part has broken off and it is now less water-resistant than an average phone. Verizon says it's all my fault.

Does anyone have a suggestion for the best cell phone to have on the water?]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,16461,16461/#msg-16461</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 10 Oct 2009 14:19:06 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Rescuing an unconscious swimmer</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,1345,15784/#msg-15784</link>
      <author>pmartzen</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Doug, 

I apologize for my rude response.   Of course you must teach to the current standards and curriculum.   Your input of those standards to this discussion is valuable.  

The fact that you strongly disagreed with my thoughts about towing a swimmer has caused me to think further about my ideas and to do some searching of the AW accident database. 

I went to the search page and at the accident search section, I typed in &quot;unconscious&quot; in the detailed description box.   That brought up a pretty long list of accidents, most of which were labeled Fatal.   I have only waded through a few so far, but it is very interesting reading even if many reports don't quite relate to this topic. 

 http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Accident/detail/accidentid/38/
This one is an example of where kayakers were unable to help their friend in turbulent water.  A rafter was finally able to pull the swimmer out, though too late.

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Accident/detail/accidentid/1009/
This one describes a very unusual entrapment, but a kayaker provided rescue by exiting his boat and supporting the victim.   

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Accident/detail/accidentid/1037/
This is another example that supports floating with the victim to keep their head out of the water.

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Accident/detail/accidentid/1164/
This accident shows the confusion that can occur and the difficulty in getting a swimmer to shore.  Use of a tow line is considered.

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Accident/detail/accidentid/113/
Another sad example of low head dams, but also showing the danger of tying into a line in swiftwater.  

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Accident/detail/accidentid/975/
A long report detailing many difficulties, including trying to rescue a swimmer while swimming oneself.  

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Accident/detail/accidentid/482/
A kayaker tows a swimmer to shore, probably using a tow rope system, though not stated explicitly.

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Accident/detail/accidentid/467/
kayaker exits his boat to hold onto his unconscious friend and swim with him through a rapid before he can get the victim to shore.  

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Accident/detail/accidentid/481/
Another example of the difficulties of kayakers rescuing swimmers in rapids.

There are plenty more as I have only gotten about a 3rd of the way through the list.   

Paul]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,1345,15784/#msg-15784</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:04:56 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Rescuing an unconscious swimmer</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,1345,15659/#msg-15659</link>
      <author>Doug_Davis</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Paul,

This will be the last time I reply to this thread. You seem to be taking this a bit personally, feel I am talking down to you in some way, and that I do not value any experience you may have. Believe me nothing could be further from the truth. For whatever reason the internet seems to be a horrible means at conveying intent and feeling, and forums such as these often lead to hurt feelings or misunderstandings. Since it seems that is the way this topic is headed and I have said my peace, I will instead simply bow out.

However one last note, as a Red Cross or ACA instructor I will always listen to the stories of my students, my peers or anyone else with practical experience/knowledge on a given topic. I am always looking to learn more, and will be the first to humbly admit I dont know everything. However as an instructor I will always teach and demonstrate to the standard and current curriculum as set by the governing bodies of those organizations, if you think that means I am telling you how you are &quot;supposed&quot; to do it, so be it.

Take care and safe journeys.]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,1345,15659/#msg-15659</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 23:31:14 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Rescuing an unconscious swimmer</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,1345,15652/#msg-15652</link>
      <author>pmartzen</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Doug,

Thanks for bringing this topic back to life.   It is a good one, I think.   

I am trying to think how to answer you diplomatically and constructively.   I feel like you assume that you are the instructor and I/we are the students.   Yet you have no idea what our relative skill levels are.   There are regular AW contributors who wrote the SWR books you refer to.   You have stated your years of training and teaching.   I have not.   But couldn't you at least start by assuming that we are equals and that my experiences might have some validity?   

One thing that I really like about kayaking is that we are frequently rescuing each other and being rescued.   We get hands on practice on a regular basis.    If we think about how those rescues went and how they can possibly be improved, then we get better,  I think.    

It seems to me that the SWR classes developed out of our real river rescue experiences.   The SWR protocols should not over ride what actually happens in real life.   SWR is a way to practice in a safer and more controlled environment what many of us have experienced in very unsafe and uncontrolled environments.  

The accident that I described is in the AW database:
http://americanwhitewater.org/content/Accident/detail/accidentid/538/

I offered it as my one experience in actually trying to get an unconscious swimmer to shore.   I have &quot;beat myself up&quot; a fair amount over this accident, but not about the rescue.    I do try to think what I might have done differently and what I might practice in the future.  

I have performed a lot of rescues over the years in rivers, on rocks and in other situations.    I would like to think that those experiences have some value and that my suggestions are worth considering.    

So, how about we talk about our actual experiences.   You can tell us how you teach this and how you yourself practice and I and others can describe what we actually did and and if we are practicing any differently now.     But Please, Please Please, don't tell me how I am &quot;Supposed&quot; to do it.  

Paul]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,1345,15652/#msg-15652</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 11:29:50 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Rescuing an unconscious swimmer</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,1345,15649/#msg-15649</link>
      <author>Doug_Davis</author>
      <description><![CDATA[pmartzen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

&gt; So the big questions in this topic are:
&gt; How can a kayaker tow an unconscious person to
&gt; shore?   If you are on shore (my case) or out of
&gt; your boat, how can you get an unconscious swimmer
&gt; out of whitewater while there is still time for it
&gt; to matter?   I think we are forced to consider
&gt; various means of attaching lines to the victim.  I
&gt; don't think there is any way around it.
&gt; 
&gt; Paul

A) Everything is always situationally  dependent. There is no life guarding or SWR book that will cover every possible scenario. As instructors we teach you as much as we can and hope for the best.

B ) YOU, the rescuer, are always number 1 priority. If you cant rescue someone without keeping yourself safe, then they dont get rescued. Order of priority is You, Other bystanders and witnesses, and finally victim.

C) How can a kayaker tow an unconscious victim to shore? Well ideally they get out of there boat and swim the person in maintaining good head/spine stabilization with an open airway. Notice I said &quot;ideally?&quot;
Rapids to much to safely get out? Then clip a cow tail onto them connected to a [b]quick release[/b] on a rescue PFD. Or hold on to the victim with one hand and paddle with the other. As I said everything is situationally dependent. Are you in the middle of a wilderness and if you loose your boat your stranded? Or are you in a river right next to a major thoroughfare, like the Ocoee? Do you have other people with you to assist? Do you have time to get into shore or an eddy, or are you about to go through another major rapid....and that unconscious swimmer being tied to you (even with a quick release) might endanger you?

D) How do you get an unconscious swimmer out from shore or in the water when out of your boat? I already explained that in my previous post, and your statement to the effect that there is no way around attaching a line to the victim is false. As I already stated you could easily attach a line to your own quick release on your rescue PFD, wade or swim out and grab the victim from behind through their PFD shoulder straps and someone else vectors the line with both of you attached into shore. Happens all the time in SWR classes or practice sessions. Or if you are going solo then you hold onto them until you can swim them and yourself into an eddy. Why would tying the line to the victim (and possibly causing them to submerge in the current as you are pulling them in) work any better than what I just described above? Only reason to do that is for simple body recovery.

I dont know what happened on the day of the accident you describe. I wasnt there. But it sounds to me like you are second guessing yourself and wondering if you could have done something different or faster. Dont. You did the best you could with what you had. Tying a line to him wouldnt have made things better and possibly would have made them worse. He flushed out of a rapid and you did the best you could. Dont beat yourself up and dont second guess it.]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,1345,15649/#msg-15649</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 02:40:41 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Rescuing an unconscious swimmer</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,1345,15633/#msg-15633</link>
      <author>pmartzen</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Hello Doug,

Topics such as this never go out of date, they just get neglected till someone feels like adding additional information.   Hopefully people will discuss their personal experiences and experiments.   

Maintaining an airway is obviously a high priority, but in my example, it simply was not possible while the victim was still in the river.   I think that is not uncommon.  In such cases the highest priority becomes getting the victim to shore, or at least out of the current, and out of danger of being swept downstream into further hazards.  The airway can only be opened after the victim is on shore, or in a raft or some safe position. 

Rescuing an unconscious person floating in a whitewater river has many unique and challenging aspects.   I believe there are a few success stories and and a lot of failures.  

Part of the problem is the unique qualities of a kayak.   Kayakers can get to a victim faster than anybody else in many cases.   However, once there we are more limited in what we can do.   The kayaker has to keep paddling if the water is turbulent, so they do not have free hands.   If the swimmer is conscious, they can grab onto the kayak and be quickly towed into shore.    If they are unconscious the kayaker has to somehow grab onto them, and then continue paddling with both hands on the paddle to get the victim to shore.    

There are examples of a kayaker exiting his craft in order to hang onto the victim and hold their head above water.   This only makes sense if it is in calm water and shore is close or there are other boaters available to do the towing.   If it is in whitewater, there would then be two victims in the water and they would not be able to keep the airway open anyway.  

If a raft crew can get to an unconscious swimmer, then one person can quit paddling, reach over, pull the victim into the boat, and then work on opening the airway.   The rafters have a stable platform to work from.   

So the big questions in this topic are:
How can a kayaker tow an unconscious person to shore?   If you are on shore (my case) or out of your boat, how can you get an unconscious swimmer out of whitewater while there is still time for it to matter?   I think we are forced to consider various means of attaching lines to the victim.  I don't think there is any way around it.

Paul]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,1345,15633/#msg-15633</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 18:33:58 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Rescuing an unconscious swimmer</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,1345,15615/#msg-15615</link>
      <author>Doug_Davis</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Eric,

As a Red Cross certified life guard, going back over two decades, and current local chapter health and safety instructor....I would say your biggest concern with rescuing an unconscious swimmer, other than maintaining a clear airway, is being concerned about a possible neck or back injury.
Generally a swimmer is unconscious for one of two reasons: Lack of oxygen to the brain (ie they aspirated water and are technically dead), or severe blunt force trauma (rock impact) to the head or spinal area. 
Now as I always tell students the airway comes first, its generally better to be paralyzed than dead. So get the airway open first and then worry about possible spinal injuries. But ideally you want to be doing both at the same time. Using your forearms along the breast bone and back of the swimmer while using your hands to cup the chin and back of the head. Using your hands and arms to provide spine and head immobilization.
As for swimming them in solo, we teach using a single arm cross chest carry. The rescuer approaches from behind the victim, wraps his arm under the arm pit of the victim and across their chest. The rescuer then uses the side stroke to swim him/herself into shore with the victim.
As for using a safety line. A safety line should NEVER be attached to an unconscious victim if at all possible (unless you are doing body recovery). Rather the rescuer attaches the safety/belay line to their quick release belt, and then grabs the victims PFD or body tightly from behind either wrapping their hands through the PFD shoulder straps or across the victim's chest. The rescuer then uses his/her body to block the water from pillowing up on the victim and maintains the victim's open airway. 
Additionally using this system has some built in safeties: the victim can be let go if need be, and the rescuer can release themselves from the line if need be using their quick release.

Hope this helped.
Doug Davis

Edit- Just realized this thread was over two years old. Opps. How do I change to forum setting to list threads in forums with most recent first by date?]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,1345,15615/#msg-15615</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 04:30:50 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Escaping a large hydraulic?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7185,12900/#msg-12900</link>
      <author>pacchoi</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I had a fine swim in a hole down in Ecuador on the Jutunyacu, a big volume river, after a wet exit.

The main thing I remember is seeing the surface of the water a foot above me and expecting my pdf to bring me up quickly, the third time around I finally figured that this wasn't going to happen so I went deep and caught the current, I came up about 40 meters downriver, thus performing my first mystery move, sans boat.]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7185,12900/#msg-12900</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 11:54:54 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Best Safety Gear</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,290,11765/#msg-11765</link>
      <author>AndyCook</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Big fan of my Astral rescue PFDs.  Get my ropes from NRS.  I like to order my spectra ropes because they degrade over time, so I'm nervous about buying one that's been sitting in a gear shop for two years before it sold.]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,290,11765/#msg-11765</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 10:48:41 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: What is better than duct tape for fixing a kayak?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,4249,11764/#msg-11764</link>
      <author>AndyCook</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Bituthane (sp?), aka bitch-o-thane is the other one that's usually mentioned.  Haven't found that or vinyl mastic, but did try west systems g-flex and tried that-- complete and utter failure.  I've always had the best luck with welding it, but that's a skill that pretty much requires a couple failures before you get it right.]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,4249,11764/#msg-11764</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 10:42:09 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Quick Release Belt Question</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7339,11763/#msg-11763</link>
      <author>AndyCook</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Here's the guideline I go by:
Plastic for plastice (towing gear)
Metal for life (live bait, anchored belay, etc.)

Definitely take a course and test it out.  As for plastic having the strength to hold you against the current, it obviously depends on the current and I really have no idea where the breaking point should be.  Also, the quick release with the belt threaded through the metal should still be quick release.  That being said, if the pressure on the webbing isn't enough to undo the buckle (and easy flowing class II usually isn't) you can easily pull the webbing out with your thumb in the front.  

This is getting kind of wonky, though and maybe missing the point, which is that you should go find a class and after the class practice everything so you can figure it out yourself.  I think the biggest danger of rescue vests is they seem better than they are.  Don't depend on it to much and don't use it to put yourself into a situation you and your team can't readily get you out of.]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7339,11763/#msg-11763</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 10:34:16 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Graduate Thesis Help</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,1342,9809/#msg-9809</link>
      <author>riverrat406</author>
      <description><![CDATA[send me a private message and i get in touch with you.]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,1342,9809/#msg-9809</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 30 Nov 2008 12:01:24 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Escaping a large hydraulic?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7185,9808/#msg-9808</link>
      <author>riverrat406</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I just want to add a little to this thread. Even narrow creeks can cause features exhibited on big water if you catch them at flood. Be a defensive swimmer. By this I mean;
1) Have the right gear and know how to use it.
2) Have a plan. If your crew is scouting discuss a safety plan. If it’s a read and run situation know where you fit into the group. Read and run is a lot like a zone defense. The person who knows the river the best leads off followed by the person with the least experience. Next comes the boaters that may be ignorant of the river but still have solid skills and finally comes the one or two most skilled boaters. I like to call this mad bomber with country fill'in. Lead boater, Fill'in boaters, and Sweep boaters. There are endless combinations of this set up but remember if members of the group are running a different line there needs to be someone in there zone to give them a hand if the S$#@ hits the fan. 
3) During every rapid have good river awareness i.e. where am i in the rapid and in relation to all of my paddling companions? Who is in my zone? In big water this is more difficult due to length of rapids and visual obstructions (Hugh waves and holes.). Good river awareness will enable you to predict, if lucky, where a swimmer will flush to or give the swimmer a good idea who the closest boat will be upon surfacing. Practice river awareness on smaller pool drop type rapids, run them mad bomber and see if you can register everyone at once.
3) Don’t panic. If you paddle long enough you will be a part of a rescue. If someone else is in trouble think first, is it safe for me to help them. Don’t make a situation worse by becoming a victim yourself. River hazards are not the only hazards in a rescue situation. A crazed swimmer can see your good gesture as an offer to use you and your boat as a piece of drift wood. This can easily flip you. If you think you can roll with someone clinging to the bottom of your boat try it in the pool, it's tough. If you’ve ever had any first aid training you know another hazard, body fluids. Bring a first aid kit that includes gloves and a CPR mask. 
        If you are the swimmer know what you are doing. Practice swimming. Balling up and staying relaxed is much easier if you have swam a lot of rapids intentionally. Despite what people say do not go completely limp. A limp person cannot stay in a tuck leaving there body open to leg and arm entrapments.
4) Know your abilities both as a paddler and as a swimmer. Think about all your options and don’t be ashamed to walk something, you can always set safety for others or take pictures.
5) Have fun. If you’re so scared that you’re not having fun what’s the point.
If you can be a defensive swimmer within your skill set and in a good group large features long swims and rough situations can be handled with intelligence.  To quote a friend, “dude everybody swims, thank god y’all were there. Have you seen the beer?”]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7185,9808/#msg-9808</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 30 Nov 2008 11:57:08 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Quick Release Belt Question</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7339,8287/#msg-8287</link>
      <author>specialjay</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Hey, 

I'm a swiftwater rescue technician and paddler from the UK, quite simply the metal piece is threaded when the belt user is used as a belay/anchor and will NOT go in the water.

If you are on the end of a rope attached to your harness in the water you only use the plastic clip, it has enough strength to hold you against the force of water. And it can be released quickly and easily and won't jam. 

Get on a safety course to learn exactly what to do!!!

Jay]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7339,8287/#msg-8287</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 05:18:03 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Quick Release Belt Question</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7339,7723/#msg-7723</link>
      <author>mattmiskie</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Hi Johna and rob

I have and have used a rescue vest for about 6 years.  I recommend taking the ACA swiftwater rescue for recreational boaters.  This is an 18 hour training and covers the basics, including how to use this vest.  

Here is how the harness [ the quick release belt ] works.

 As you are wearing the vest and looking down to thread the harness, It threads through to the left side, then through two loops in the back, between which  a D ring lanyard can be attached.  Then it comes around to the right side, and back to the front.  This is where the metal piece is.  

This is the load bearing mechanism of the harness.  This provides the friction to hold the webbing in place under force. It works much like a bleay device such as an ATC or stitch plate.  

The plastic quick-release mechanism merely holds the webbing in the position required to make the belay device work, and keep the webbing from slipping out.

When you pull the quick release open, the angle that the webbing is being held at changes, thus releasing the load on the metal plate.

happy paddling]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7339,7723/#msg-7723</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:14:05 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: What is better than duct tape for fixing a kayak?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,4249,7704/#msg-7704</link>
      <author>Massey</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I have used wonder putty with much success. It is a 2 part epoxy putty, comes in a tube about the size of a roll of quarters, you can apply wet, made by loctite you can buy it for about 5 bucks @ wal-mart in the plumbing section.  Bonds like a mofo! Put some in your creeking kit. It is the bomb!]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,4249,7704/#msg-7704</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:33:41 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Quick Release Belt Question</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7339,7414/#msg-7414</link>
      <author>rob</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Since your post has been up for a week with no reply, I'll attempt to jump in on this answer. However, I do so with the disclaimer that I do not own a 'rescue PFD', have never used one, but have seen them once or twice. (In twenty years of boating, I have been fortunate that there have only been one or two instances where I may have actually been able to put one to good use.)

Anyway, as I understand (and recall) the 'quick release' situation on these . . .
The concern is that under HEAVY load, any plastic buckle or release might break or jam. If it breaks, you lose the whole thing to the river when you DIDN'T want or need to. If it jams, you CAN'T release yourself from the tethered object when you DO need to.

A belt without the metal piece might be 'sufficient' to pull a capsized boat to shore, under the most favorable of conditions. However, say you are in your boat doing the towing, and the tethered object or the rope gets hung up on something and is completely snagged. If the 'quick release' fails, you are now just as 'snagged' as the rope and the tethered object. If you can't get the release to work, you had better be able to get to your knife (you DO carry one if you carry a rope, right!?!) and you better be able to hold onto it and be able to get to the rope and be able to cut the rope, or you're dead meat.

A plastic buckle or plastic release can be impossible to release under the forces a strong current will exert upon them. The metal releases (usually something like a metal ring with a metal pin, through which the tether is connected) will not fail, and will be able to be released even under quite substantial load.

It's all about reducing the risk of the 'worst case scenario'. Other arrangements might work fine a substantial percentage of the time. But you don't want to take any more chances than you have to in that situation, and the metal releases are just that extra 'margin of safety' against the worst case scenario.

Hope that helps. Otherwise, write back, or someone else may (eventually) have something to add.]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7339,7414/#msg-7414</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 12:40:30 -0400</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Quick Release Belt Question</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7339,7339/#msg-7339</link>
      <author>johna1</author>
      <description><![CDATA[First and foremost-you should get real on the water rescue training.  You can get yourself in real trouble by reading an article online and going out to the river and practicing what you think you've &quot;learned&quot;.

Having said that, I just picked up whitewater kayaking and haven't taken a rescue class yet.  I'm a certified rescue scuba diver, and have taken some other basic rescue/first aid courses.  Today I was in the shop looking at rescue pfds and noticed a metal piece that the belt was threaded through, just behind the plastic right hand quick release.  Asked a store clerk and he said it was because the plastic buckle could break under a heavy load without it.  Could someone explain to me how this works and when it needs to be used, I haven't seen this before, I've simply seen/used/been trained with a simple plastic belt release but they that was just carrying light loads (no live bait rescues, just hauling gear/dropping weight).  Would a belt without the metal piece be sufficient to pull a capsized boat to shore?

Thanks much]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7339,7339/#msg-7339</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 02:29:18 -0400</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: Escaping a large hydraulic?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7185,7326/#msg-7326</link>
      <author>sandman2211</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Well, I've looked through about 100 accidents on the accident database and thought I'd share my findings for posterity.

It looks like the vast majority of the whitewater related fatalities I read about could have been avoided by observing one or all of the following guidelines:

1.  Wear your lifejacket and [b]make sure it fits properly[/b].
2.  Don't go alone.
3.  Secure anything (ropes, gear, straps, clothing) that could
entangle you during or after a flip.
4.  During life and death situations, being drunk is not a good idea.
5.  Stay away from strainers and logjams at all costs.

Also, being old, very young, or out of shape makes you a lot more likely to drown.  Of the people who were doing everything right but drowned anyway, most of them were under 15, over 55, or overweight.  If you fall into any of those categories, make sure you have a Type V lifejacket to keep your face out of water if you're unconscious and a buddy that can fish you out and get you breathing again.]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7185,7326/#msg-7326</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 18:36:30 -0400</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: Escaping a large hydraulic?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7185,7312/#msg-7312</link>
      <author>sandman2211</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Alright, thanks for the great advice!  I swam the hole in House Rock in the Grand Canyon at about 20,000 cfs and know what you mean about the long swim.  I don't think I was underwater for 200 yards though, probably only 50-60 but that was still the longest 20 seconds of my life.  What really stuck with me though is how completely helpless I felt in the power of all that water.  The cold didn't hit me until was out of the rapid but being in 48 degree water for 2 minutes really takes it out of you.

But that was with a commercial trip.  The guides are professionals and deal with that stuff all the time, so I didn't worry about drowning very much.  I've got 3 full canyon trips as a passenger in an oarboat and 1 Diamond-down trip as a rower, but that's about it as far as my experience goes.  We don't have any professionals or guides on this trip so I'm just trying to play it as safe as possible and prepare for everything I can.  It looks like Cataract will be down below 20,000 cfs by the time we hit the Big Drops next week so I'm not really that worried about it anymore.

My main worry was that hole on the right side at the bottom of Big Drop 2.  From my research I figured the most likely way for somebody to drown on my trip would be if their boat was sucked into that thing sideways.  From the videos on youtube, it looks like it gets bigger and meaner every spring than anything I've seen in the Grand Canyon.  The accident database (awesome resource, by the way) listed a couple deaths from it.  It looks like they were because of the cold, long swim and exhaustion, not from being held underwater by a hydraulic or obstruction though.  I'm in good physical shape and won't wear myself out trying to fight the river so I'm not too worried about that part.  Also according to NOAA the river should be down below 20,000 cfs by the time we hit it so I might actually get through right-side up.]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7185,7312/#msg-7312</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 12:57:33 -0400</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Appalachian Wilderness Medicine Conference</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7297,7297/#msg-7297</link>
      <author>jditty</author>
      <description><![CDATA[The 2008 Appalachian Wilderness Medicine Conference is in Morgantown, WV Aug 8-10, hosted by WVU Department of Emergency Medicine and WV ACEP. There's lots of good information for paddlers, including wilderness CPR, shoulder reduction, drowning and hypothermia, splinting, etc. We'll also have a search and rescue course on Friday, simulated rescue scenarios and other practical skills workshops at Cooper's Rock State Park on Saturday, and a choice of cave rescue with the Mountaineer Area Rescue Group, or river rescue with Charley Walbridge, Eric Nies, and Adam Robbins on Sunday. 
Friday night we'll be showing some films from the National Paddling Film Festival. 

The upper Yough releases on Friday, Saturday, and Monday, and there's always the Lower Yough, Cheat, and ASCI nearby as well. (And if the rain keeps falling, maybe some others...) 

More information and online registration is available at: 
http://www.hsc.wvu.edu/som/em/Wilderness/Conference.asp 

If any questions, email jackditty@mac.com]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7297,7297/#msg-7297</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 22:56:09 -0400</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: Escaping a large hydraulic?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7185,7273/#msg-7273</link>
      <author>pmartzen</author>
      <description><![CDATA[It is educational to read the actual accident reports from both Grand Canyon and Cataract Canyon.   Accidents are listed in a sidebar on the AW river pages.
http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/River_detail_id_114_
http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/River_detail_id_1842_

Cataract has claimed quite a few more lives, but the typical scenario is the same.   If the swim is long enough, people drown.   There is no mention in any of these real accidents of victims caught in pour overs.    Pour overs / holes initiate the problem by flipping rafts, then swimmers flush downstream.   If not rescued fairly quickly swimmers can get too tired out and/or become hypothermic and drown.    If you are in poor physical condition or are not wearing sufficient wetsuit or drysuit, you are in greater danger.  

However, the number of fatalities is tiny considering the number of people who float through these canyons.   It is likely that there are a few flips and swims in these canyons every single day, yet only a few people have died over many years.  

If you swim in high water there is really nothing you can do other than to ball up, relax and try to conserve oxygen.   You can flush a long ways before you pop to the surface again.   When you do come up, it may be for only a fraction of a second, before you go back under.   You have to get your breath in short unpredictable moments.  

I swam out the bottom of Lava once at around 35,000 cfs and I was underwater for a long time.   I am told, I reappeared about 200 yards below where I dissappeared.    So it does not need to be a hole to hold you under for a long time in big water.    

Typically most big water holes flush you deep and you pop up a long ways downstream.   If that is the end of the rapid you are fine but if you flush into more serious rapids you can just get too tired and cold to get air when you need it.]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7185,7273/#msg-7273</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 17:53:35 -0400</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: Escaping a large hydraulic?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7185,7271/#msg-7271</link>
      <author>rob</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Such hydraulics are generally rare (fortunately), but could occur in even relatively lower flow situations. Even a few hundred cfs going over a low-head dam, or in a narrow slot-canyon pourover into a deep, steep-walled cauldron could create a nasty hydraulic.

The longest time it could hold a swimmer? Well beyond what you could hold your breath. I've seen logs, volleyballs, basketballs, and all manner of debris recirculated for days in the backwash of low-head dams.

Yes, there [i]can[/i] be  undercuts in the riverbed (or logs, large branches, or whole trees stuck underwater in the area below the drop) which could snag you and hold you under. These are certainly rare (especially at such locations as form keeper hydraulics) but nonetheless not impossible.

What you can do as a swimmer? Well, I think it is well covered in one of the old William Nealy books (and no doubt other places). I don't have any of those at hand, but my recollection is something as follows:

Your first choice is trying to stay in your boat, working to one edge of the hole or the other to try to work your way out. Failing that, sometimes you can find a spot where perhaps the backwash is weaker and you can paddle your way out. Or perhaps dig in an edge (of the boat) or get the flow to take the bow or stern under to 'ender out'. Or if you intentionally (or unintentionally) flip, the fact that your entire weight is no longer in the boat, but is now providing some additional buoyancy (you and your PFD), sometimes that is enough to cause the boat to flush out of the hole. If not, it may help if (instead of tucking as tightly to the boat as possible, as in setting up to roll) you 'hang out', extending your body, your arms, and your paddle as deeply as possible, to catch the downstream-flowing water deeper in the river. There may have been some additional options, but they don't come to me now. Other than a totally 'last chance' option. Before going for the full 'wet exit', I've heard some folks propose that you might intentionally pop your skirt off the rim of the boat and let the boat fill with water while you remain firmly in the saddle. Again, the lack of buoyancy can be enough to let you flush out of the hydraulic. The 'plus' side is that you are still in your boat, with your paddle (so no 'yard sale' -- yet!) and (by some theory) you can try to paddle toward shore and save yourself or someone else the problem of having to fetch your gear (or the possibility that you may lose it completely). The downside is that you are in a boat full of water . . . well, half-full, if you have equipped your boat with float bags . . . either way, it will paddle like a slug! If you can't get to shore immediately, you are trying to paddle a full boat through whatever is downstream. Your boat full of water is floating so much lower, and is so much heavier, the likelihood of it catching on a rock and pinning is waaayy increased. Your maneuverability will be almost nil, so you will mostly end up where the river wants to take you. (I have never really considered this whole option as being anything remotely 'viable'. I'm curious if anyone has ever used it successfully, and what the scenario was which made it feasible.)

Failing any of the above . . . once you are out of your boat . . . first, the river may flush you out as soon as you exit the boat (since you now lack it's bouyancy). If it doesn't, the first tendency and option may be to try to swim out (either downstream, or to one side or the other) if you can keep your head above water enough to do so. Depending upon the situation (the nature of the hole, the geology of the river, the flow, the size of the river, etc) an option which should not be ignored may be as simple as to try to find bottom. If the river is not too deep, it may be possible to just stand up and walk out! (YES, I've actually done that! More than once! On relatively low-flow rivers, at a bedrock ledge or boulder/pourover.) In larger rivers, or rivers with large rocks or with sieves and undercuts, this may not be a good strategy, as there may be significant risk of becoming entrapped, entangled, or pinned under or between rocks or other stuff in the drop or downstream. I've heard of (or seen) places where it may be possible (if there is a considerable 'hollow' behind the face of the falls) to get 'behind the curtain' and walk/crawl, swim/clamor your way to shore. Or to get to a spot where you could push off (as a swimmer in a swimming pool, pushing off the wall to accelerate away from it) or dive-through the falls. Failing any of those, caught in a hydraulic which keeps recirculating you, generally trying to 'go deep' is recommended, to try to catch the downstream flowing water. Another strategy is 'making shapes'. Try 'balling up'. Try extending your arms and legs (together) straight. Try extending them out to the sides. Arch your body into a &quot;C&quot;. Stiffen up. Go limp. (Often holes flush the body after the victim has quit struggling.) Again, a last-ditch desperation measure I've heard proposed is taking off the PFD, hoping that the loss of that bouyancy may make the difference. I'm hard pressed to imagine that making enough of a difference, and having the presence of mind (and air supply remaining in my lungs) to try that (after trying everything else possible first!). And, the problem then is that (even if it does get you out of the hole) you are now completely exhausted and in the river without a PFD, and likely to drown anyway!

Well, again, these are RARE situations. If you boat high volume rivers, rivers in flood, class V-VI rivers, and so forth, maybe your odds of such a thing get a tad higher. But for most boaters, extremely few of these measures will ever have to be employed. There is never ONE RIGHT ANSWER. Rivers are almost infinitely different, as are water levels, rapids, falls, and hydraulics. What may be THE RIGHT thing to do one time and place may be completely WRONG another time (same place) or another place.

Good luck!]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7185,7271/#msg-7271</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:00:10 -0400</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: Escaping a large hydraulic?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7185,7186/#msg-7186</link>
      <author>matt</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Well, I haven't been in the huge ones like what you're talking about; I've been in plenty of sticky holes, though (mostly in my boat, but sometimes not).
As for what a swimmer can do: one piece of advice, which actually works often, is to dive down. I know you want to get to the surface and breathe and stuff, but diving down gives you a chance to catch the downstream flow and surface several feet downstream, beyond the backwash.
I'm sure others have mo betta info.]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7185,7186/#msg-7186</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:24:25 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Escaping a large hydraulic?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7185,7185/#msg-7185</link>
      <author>sandman2211</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I'm mostly worried about the kinds you'd run into in Cataract Canyon and Grand Canyon - large pourover types in the 20,000 - 40,000 cfs range.

What's the longest time a large hole can hold a swimmer?  Is it usually just a few circulations until you get shoved out the side, or can it be long enough to actually drown you?  Are there ever undercuts in the river bed that can snag you and hold you?

Is there anything you as a swimmer can do besides holding your breath and waiting it out?  

Thanks!]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,7185,7185/#msg-7185</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:37:40 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Minimum safety gear</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,472,7097/#msg-7097</link>
      <author>riverrat406</author>
      <description><![CDATA[dont put all your egs in one basket. its a pain in the @@@ to loose the groups only first aid kit or breakdown. Also hand paddles are a good alternitive to the break down. just be sure and pratice with them before you need them.]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,472,7097/#msg-7097</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 13:16:16 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: The Best Safety Gear</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,290,7059/#msg-7059</link>
      <author>riverrat406</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Lotus designs was bought by patigonia and it would seem phased out. I was bumed for a while untill discoverd astral.]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,290,7059/#msg-7059</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:16:02 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: What is better than duct tape for fixing a kayak?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,4249,7058/#msg-7058</link>
      <author>riverrat406</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Eric,
Gorilla Tape (they also make the glue) apply on the inside of the boat. The trick like anything is to get the area really dry before applying it. For this try drying with a towl than using rubbing alchool. I have never fixed a boat this way however a paddling buddy of mine used it on the futa last year.]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,4249,7058/#msg-7058</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:12:36 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: What is better than duct tape for fixing a kayak?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,4249,6514/#msg-6514</link>
      <author>JimJanney</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Vinyl Mastic is the stuff you want.  

http://www.foxelectricsupply.com/content/products/ProductCatalog.asp?qscategoryId=26275

I broke my Jefe in BC the night before flying in for an overnighter and was given a patch of this stuff for the foot long crack.  The same boat has been going on the patches of this stuff for the last 9 months.  The only problem is that if you want to weld the crack properly later, the stuff's a bitch to get off (takes hours).  

Apply by cutting to proper length, heating slightly over the fire, and placing over crack on inside of the boat.]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,4249,6514/#msg-6514</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2008 23:43:58 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Minimum safety gear</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,472,5584/#msg-5584</link>
      <author>harveyking</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Interesting safety thread. A few things I would add to the top of the list:
1) if you paddle with other people a CPR mask is a smart addition to any kit, I carry mine in the front pocket of my PFD so that it is there when and if I need it. 
2) a throw bag that is on my body, easily the most overlooked piece of rescue gear. What if your raft is upside down? Your kayak downstream? your canoe rapped on a rock? ... and you on shore with no way to help anyone or to retrieve your boat.

The other stuff: Whistle, helmet, PFD, Knife, proper clothing, first aid kit, wrap kit, and survival kit should and could go along on every outing. Safety and preparedness are no accident.

Take a 3-day minimum river rescue course for the hands on experience, there's so much to do and go over, three days is barely ever enough. 

FRESHWATERS]]></description>
      <category>General Whitewater Safety Discussion</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/21,472,5584/#msg-5584</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:50:44 -0400</pubDate>
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