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    <title>Take Me to the River</title>
    <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/list/send/28/</link>
    <description><![CDATA[Meet in Here to Meet out There]]></description>
    <language>EN</language>
    <pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2008 16:41:53 -0400</pubDate>
    <lastBuildDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2008 16:41:53 -0400</lastBuildDate>
    <category>Take Me to the River</category>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,8110/#msg-8110</link>
      <author>kwildman</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I really appreciate all the info that came out of this thread. Thank you for sharing it here. 
Kim]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,8110/#msg-8110</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 09 Aug 2008 16:41:53 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,8084/#msg-8084</link>
      <author>bethany</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I really wanted to make this trip, but the distance wasn't doable for me this weekend. Hope you all have a great time and thanks again for the invite!

Bethany]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,8084/#msg-8084</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 13:13:10 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,8083/#msg-8083</link>
      <author>eakirkwood</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Have fun George.  Sunday is my wife's birthday, so no weekend long trips for me this weekend.

Allen]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,8083/#msg-8083</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 12:40:06 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,8075/#msg-8075</link>
      <author>ezgpaddler</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Oh Well!

No phone messages, no posts, no takers I guess. We're headed to the Yough later today and will be at the put in around 10:00 - 10:30am if anyone changes their mind.

Have a great weekend, and if it's wet paddle it!]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,8075/#msg-8075</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 08 Aug 2008 11:28:52 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7767/#msg-7767</link>
      <author>ezgpaddler</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Well here's the deal, if your interested in going on the trip to the Lower Yough call me on my Cell and leave a message. I 'll be going either way, and I'm pretty certain that those discussing the fatalities on this river will be far to busy paddling something more difficult and dangerous or sitting at their lap tops still blah blahing about the lower Yough.

If ya don't go because of this highjacked thread and have the skils then it's your loss not mine. If you don't have the boat skills then you've made a wise choice.

I'll say this about the trip, everyone has an opinion about every river none of them are totally correct, that IS an area where the AW does a very respectable job as an organization. They offer an objective view of the river and accurate discription and a place for paddlers opinions. So, make up your own mind and if you want to come along do so. My number is in the BWA booklet or private message me.

Mike Molnar,

As for beta on getting the trailer I just now swa your illplaced post about so call me and I arrange to meet you at the storage property Friday after work if you want.

See ya'll]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7767/#msg-7767</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:52:17 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7756/#msg-7756</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Wes, that is true and a good example.  I was left of my normal center line and trying to keep an eye on our buddy Terry Ratliff who was behind us with a broke paddle sticking up out of his life jacket  drew me to where I would not be normally entering the drop.  I wasn't focused on the approach, took it for granted that I always had a perfect line and next thing you know, I got surfed.  And, you are certainly right about the knowledge one has of the river and doing lines in your sleep.  Everywhere, rivers the world over, &quot;if you are still boatin, you are in between swims.&quot;
Brent]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7756/#msg-7756</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:28:43 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7755/#msg-7755</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Hanley:  lol, fair enuf my friend!
Brent]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7755/#msg-7755</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:23:44 -0400</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7754/#msg-7754</link>
      <author>Powhoundus</author>
      <description><![CDATA[For those that are stepping up through the rivers ... one useful resource may be the Keelhaulers river rating guide. While I personally do not agree with some of their ratings, (the Chattooga Sect IV at 1.8 I think is over rated. It is not 3 points harder than the Upper Ocoee!), for the most part I agree with them. They take into account not only the difficulty of the river, but rescue logistics / remoteness, etc. The Lower Yough at 2' scores a few points above the Pigeon and a bit more above the Nanty and a few below the Lower Ocoee. 

The Lower Ocoee is big, and can spank you, but unless you do something really dumb ... like wading in fast current ... you won't die there. The only truly ugly hole that will recirc you more than a time or two is (IMO) Powerhouse ledge, and the only other three that may take you 2-3 cycles are Grumpy ledge hole, Broken Nose ledge hole, and double suck.

The Upper Ocoee is a whole 'nother ball of wax. First there are the trees on the upper part of the river ... while the river is easy there, if you were swimming there could be some problem spots. Then there are the deadly sieves ... Alien boof, and Blue Holes. While no one has died that I know of in the Blue Holes ... if you were to try to wade there at low flow you could get sucked in and stuck if there is new wood there. I've swam them many times when I worked there when the water was off. At normal flow you would float way over them. The holes on the Olympic course, roach motel are big beater types ... but not the terminal recirc type. Edge of the world ... again 2-3 cycles at most. 

I think the Ocoee is big enough to scare off most of the true beginners ... the ones that make mistakes that kill them on lesser rivers like the Nanty. The Russell Fork  was a blast at low flow... all the vert and none of the push. I did more improvised creekin moves there in one run than a whole season on a bunch of different runs on other creeks / rivers.  I also had fun at 800 there (with my full game face on) and not a lot of fun at 1000. The extra push of 1000 was enough to make me a little too nervous. Doesn't take a lot of flow there to make a huge difference. In contrast to the Ocoee, and like the Upper Gauley, there are many places to die on the RF. Some of them if you are doing everything right ... just in the wrong place. Seeing all the undercuts at low flow is a very sobering experience. We ran into a bunch of local tubers at Fist. They were clueless of course. It was getting late ... and they were just at Fist. Had taken them a long time to get there. I hope they eventually found the railroad tracks. Bet their a$$es are still sore!

I think as you get very familiar with a river ... it seems easy to you but the danger is still there. Maybe the UG for some, or the RF for Brent, and Sect IV or the Ocoee for me. You've got the moves at various levels so nailed you can do it in your sleep ... until one day you get handed a big surprise. That never happened to me  on Sect IV, but realize it could have. On the Lower Ocoee last year I got surfed upside down twice in Broken Nose ledge ... eventually worked my way out in the boat, but was not fun. Not sure if what happened to Brent last Fall counts as one of those instances. I was so bug eyed at First Drop that I have no idea of what he did ... just that he was getting surfed hard and then was out ... and I was in the right place at the right time to help and was very glad that I decided to delay my run for a few seconds and not to try to bump him out of the hole... cause we both would have probably been in the water and maybe headed for the ugly swim through 3rd drop! We can never be complacent, particularly on dangerous rivers that have taken, or have the potential to take lives. 

Wes]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7754/#msg-7754</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:54:03 -0400</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7753/#msg-7753</link>
      <author>hanleyk1</author>
      <description><![CDATA[The threadjack continues:

Brent, you make some good observations. I really don't think we're that far off, but I will quibble with you about the number of boaters on the fork. As you noted, I used to shoot video there and I used to basically shoot all the traffic on the fork on a given day in order to supply myself with base footage for videos like, &quot;River House Rocks and Rolls&quot;. USA Raft tended to get on the water early and I was frequently the first boat through Tower. Then they'd eat lunch at El Horrendo and tarry as long as possible to stretch the trip out. Basically the customers were paying $200 for 2 miles of intense whitewater ($100 a mile), so they stretched it out as much as they could. Then, at the end of the day I would wait at climax and shoot the tail end of the traffic coming through. 

Basically, the RF is a narrow, steep, short run and it doesn't take many boaters to fill it up. A big trip for USA was 20 guests, and that was pretty unusual. Still, since we had to use small rafts that amounted to five or six rafts easily, plus guides and trainees. 

The Lower Yough and Nantahala have long windows of water and companies run many trips throughout the day. We never ran more than 1 trip a day on the fork, and that was par for the course for most outfitters there, 1 trip was all anyone could fill. Wahoo bumped the numbers up as you noted, but I'd still say that the total number of rafting guests coming down in the whole season was significantly less than 1000. Compared to the literally hundreds of thousands of guests on either the Yo or Nanny in a season, just one rafting death puts the fork way over. 

I still think the RF gorge is a great run and if a boater's skills are up to it and s/he wants to do it, then s/he should. I just think that it's important to consider the fun to danger ratio and keep in mind that the relatively easy moves (compared to other steep creeks with similar gradient) can lull you into a false sense of security. Most other steep creeks of similar gradient are generally more difficult on the average, but (IMHO) less likely to extract the ultimate penalty for a screw up. 

               Hanley]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7753/#msg-7753</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 11:47:40 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7749/#msg-7749</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Hanley:  You may be right about the Russell Fork deaths per capita, but, it is hard to say.  I remember my first down the gorge in 1989 R2 ing with my buddy Dave Martin of Friendsville (&quot;Treehouse Dave&quot;) and it was packed with throngs of commercial and private rafts, kayakers and, hell, even squirt boaters.  I remember the first death I was aware of on the River in 93 and the second in 94 which scenes I paddled upon (the second with my late friend Andy Lee who was seeing the RF for the first time).  Before those two raft deaths (the second was a 17 yo raft trainee), there seemed to me a thousand people going down the river if not each day, for sure over the weekend.  I remember seeing, in the early 90's, Cherokee Adventures among many others dumping swimmers at Fist, Triple Drop, under Maze, above El Horrendo, with great regularity.  Wahoo would take anyone down, regardless of age, with $100 in their hot little hand.  Hanley, you were out there during those days in the 91-93 range.  Amazing the amount of traffic that used to go down that river.   Not even close today.  Anyway, the RF is clearly dangerous, but, it tends to be paddled by boaters with good skills.  I have personally taken tons of folks down, some with marginal skills and most with adequate skills and always considered it a manageable and reasonable safe river - as far as classic Class V rivers go.  That of course does not mean that you can't get your butt kicked there.  I did last fall - first time in awhile.  And, you can die there - a good friend of mine did 4 1/2 years ago.   But, I would encourage those with good skill levels with a knowledgeable guide to go for it, because I think, and experience has shown, that they will have a good safe time and will fall in love with the river.  I did.  Hope others will too.  
Brent]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7749/#msg-7749</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:00:17 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7746/#msg-7746</link>
      <author>hanleyk1</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I think the Ocoee falls into the classification of &quot;more likely to beat you black and blue than kill you&quot;. The fact that it is shallow, punchy and continuous acts as a pretty good deterrent for paddlers of modest skill, and the fact that all the commercial rafts are guided makes the commercial aspect considerably more manageable. Having a guide in every raft, even if that guide isn't very good, is a damned site better than having mostly self guided rafts reading their way down the river using Braille. Add to that the fact that the Ocoee has almost no undercuts and you have a pretty good formula for keeping people alive.

Some of the same can be said for the Gauley. Having a guide in every raft really cuts down on the number of fatalities.

The Russell Fork Gorge, according to AW's accident database, has 4 fatalities. Not nearly as many people as the Nanny or Lower Yo, but only if you compare the actual number of fatalities. More people go down either one of these rivers in a midsummer month than have boated the Russell Fork Gorge in it's entire history. So, if you look at it from that perspective, the Russell Fork Gorge may have taken more lives per capita than any river on the East Coast. Naturally, this is just guesswork in the absence of hard figures, but I think it's a pretty fair guess.

                 Hanley]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7746/#msg-7746</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:23:30 -0400</pubDate>
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      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7742/#msg-7742</link>
      <author>mike46molnar</author>
      <description><![CDATA[George,

Good points.  On the Ocoee, however, there have been an amazingly small number of fatalities in comparison to other class III ( or class IV to the newer boaters :) rivers in the southeast.  It seems to me to be an unusually swimmer-friendly river run, with hardly any undercuts or other typical danger spots. . . .

BTW, I need to borrow the small club trailer for part of this weekend.  Can you please give me the beta I'll need to pick it up and drop it off when I'm done ?  Mucho appreciated, gear meister !

Mike Molnar]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7742/#msg-7742</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:32:56 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7739/#msg-7739</link>
      <author>ezgpaddler</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Bethany,

If I'm not mistaken I've paddled Muddy with you earlier this spring. I don't know what youv'e done since, but your welcome to along. The worst case would be to run the loop which includes Entrance, Cucumber, and some other class II's down to the take out a the rail road bridge If you don't feel comfortable on the river. Truthfully if you've spent much time at all on the Nanty and /or any local class three rivers you'll most likely be fine and we can give you every necessary line in detail.

As fo rthe rest of the discussion I'm a bit suprised, I never any conversations like this about the Russell fork, the New, the Ocoee, or the Gauley which have all consumed more lives (Assumption) than the Yough.]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7739/#msg-7739</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:49:58 -0400</pubDate>
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      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7738/#msg-7738</link>
      <author>desertrat</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Dimple rapid.  Sounds so benign, so friendly and happy...but there it awaits with giant gnashing teeth and morning breath, waiting for the hapless noob to float into its jaws and disappearing into that dark, sucking hole of death...forever.

Bring scuba gear and a bulldozer.  Or one of these...just cut the rock in half.

http://bp0.blogger.com/_oLJaFlkSQ_I/SHpP_9OJo6I/AAAAAAAAACc/8uhFZMedMPM/s1600-h/habitat-chainsaw.JPG]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7738/#msg-7738</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:11:52 -0400</pubDate>
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      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7737/#msg-7737</link>
      <author>hanleyk1</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Quite true. There have been a couple of kayaker deaths at Dimple, but not under the rock. As I recall they were not of the &quot;watch out for that hazard&quot; type, but more of the &quot;if enough people run a rapid, somebody's gotta die there&quot; sort. 

For perspective, at least eight people are listed in the AW database as having died on the Nantahala, almost all at Patton's Run or Nantahala Falls. Five were commercial guests, two were private boaters and one is unknown. It is likely that there have been a couple that are not accounted for in this list. 

The accident reports suggest that knowledge and proper action (such as never standing up in moving water) could have prevented most of these deaths. Over the last 20 years, literally millions of people have been down the Nantahala. When you really look at it from a statistical standpoint, the really striking thing is that there haven't been more deaths. 

Whitewater is a sport where you can manage yourself in a number of ways to keep yourself much safer on the water than you are in your car. This includes judging the river and water level, making good choices about routes, paying attention, taking safety classes (like river rescue) etc. 

Long story short, don't let all this extreme dissection of the intricacies of the miniscule number of deaths on the Lower Yough deter you from going. If we dissected the deaths on I-75 this way we'd probably make half the folks on the board swear off driving. I personally guarantee that any given American interstate highway has killed hundreds or thousands of people and a much higher percentage of the total number of folks traveling on it. 

                  Hanley]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7737/#msg-7737</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:39:20 -0400</pubDate>
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      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7736/#msg-7736</link>
      <author>bethany</author>
      <description><![CDATA[All this talk of fatalities has me itchin' to get on the Lower Yough.......................

George, I'm interested, but not sure that I'm ready. I'll get back to you as soon as I decide. Regardless of my participation, thanks for getting the trip together. It's always nice to have options.

Bethany]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7736/#msg-7736</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:41:50 -0400</pubDate>
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      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7735/#msg-7735</link>
      <author>LarryC</author>
      <description><![CDATA[While I don't recall a kayaker or canoeist death at Dimple, there have been fatalities on the Lower Yough in the kayaking crowd. Without digging through all the old accident reports and from memory, there have been several fatalities at Cucumber, all at high water. There has been one fatality and a number of close calls at Railroad. Rivers End and Bruner's both have had fatalities over the years, again most at high water.

The Yough is running 3.17 right now, and I wouldn't really consider that an intermediate level.]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7735/#msg-7735</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:32:00 -0400</pubDate>
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      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7732/#msg-7732</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I have not been on the Lower Yough since the early 90's, but Dimple Rock had a reputation of having killed a number over 10 or 11 then - all raftoids though from my recollection.  I never confirmed that and it was only the hearsay of the time.  But, it is easy to avoid.  Sounds like a fun trip George.  Have a great time.
Brent]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7732/#msg-7732</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:25:55 -0400</pubDate>
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      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7729/#msg-7729</link>
      <author>hanleyk1</author>
      <description><![CDATA[George, your summation pretty much reflects how I feel about this run. Boat control is necessary and knowledge is necessary, but most of the lines for a kayak are like driving a mini-cooper through an aircraft hanger door.

Your statement about Dimple prompted me to search the AW accident database, since I only have what I've heard others say to go on. There were three commercial guests killed there in 2000 and at least two others in other years. No indication of kayaks going under the rock. Like you said, it's a very wide channel going around it. 

AW's accident database is incomplete, so I can't say definitively how many people have died under that rock, let's just say it's a handful and that the rock merits respect, and that it's easy to avoid for a kayaker who has basic boat control skills. 

                              Hanley]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7729/#msg-7729</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:01:20 -0400</pubDate>
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      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7722/#msg-7722</link>
      <author>ezgpaddler</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I see alot of discussion about the river and all is true within reason. Dimple has claimed a total of three lives, 2 rental rafters and 1 rental duckie. Not a single kayaker has been in danger of the undercut at dimple because the line is a bare minimum of 20 to 30 feet wide and near impossible to miss in a boat. The other real potential for injury or death is at Rivers end rapid (there is foot entrapment potential at center to center right just beyond the meat of the rapid), the line for the rapid is the left side of the river and is near impossible to miss if you simply enter the rapid along the left side. The hole at Cucumber is dead center and the line is left side just off Table rock. At worst you might get window shaded, recirculated and pushed out the back side (following a couple moments of real excitement for by standers). the first hole at double hydraulic is about the same a Cucumber and the entire rapid can be an elkhorn class two if you hang river right through the rocks. Other than those issues there is nothing to fear accept fear itself!

This trip is intended for people confident in their boat control and wanting to prepare for some bigger water like the BSF, Ocoee, New etc. 

Camping is available at the PA state park (Kentuck Campground where we'll stay) or at the paddlers camp about 5 miles from the put in. I'll post directions to it later. Either way I intend to organize to putin at about 10-11 am to beat the rush. Saturday will be a full day on the river (putin and shuttle out is a $5 fee at the put in. On Sunday we can choose to run the loop ($3 put in), the whole river again, or possibly a section of the Cheat in WV ( water dependant).

Anyone wanting to go post on this thread and I strongly suggest car pooling, it's a 6 to 6.5hr drive, but well worth it for the quality of paddling available. 

Any of you hard core paddlers could propbably arrange an Upper yough trip to coincide if you wanted.]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7722/#msg-7722</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 21:46:37 -0400</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7716/#msg-7716</link>
      <author>hanleyk1</author>
      <description><![CDATA[My take on the Lower Yough is that although it may be a step up from the Upper Pigeon, it's a pretty user friendly step up as long as the water's at a reasonable level and you are informed about where the dangerous spots are. There are only a few of them and they are easily managed if you have someone along who will point them out and show you the sneaks or portages. The Lower Yough is kind of like the Nantahala of the Southern PA, Maryland panhandle region in that it's where boaters in that area learn to boat. It is definitely harder than the Nanny, but not as continuous or bony as the Lower Ocoee.

Basically what I'm saying is that I wouldn't recommend against it for most of our novice boaters, but I would recommend going with someone who is very familiar with the hazards. There are only a few, but knowing where they are is a huge difference. 

I might also add that although Dimple has claimed a number of people, the majority of those have been in self-guided rafts and duckies. A couple hundred thousand people a year come to the Lower Yough and pay for a whitewater prostitute to service them with a rubber device of this sort. Hence, you should always keep an eye out for those moving undercuts.

                     Hanley]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7716/#msg-7716</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 10:02:03 -0400</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7708/#msg-7708</link>
      <author>robbymartin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[This is a great river, but I agree a step up from the upper Pigeon. Some really fun rapids and a great surf spot at swimmers for people learning to surf. You do need to know the line going through cucumber or you will be in a pretty dangerous hole. Just line up with cucumber rock and hug it as close as you can with the rock to your left. I'll post the video of the correct line when I get it up. Dimples requires some good boat handling, not necessarily because its a tough rapid but because of the consequence of a rock that has claimed 12 lives. There is a easy dry route if you want. River's end is in my book one of the best rapids out there. nice little S move through some big boulders and waves. One of the great things about the river is the Ohiopyle region. Make sure you check out Meadows Run, a class IV/V creek right by the put in. Before you get to the put in parking lot, you'll see a sign for 'natural waterslides' on the right. follow the trail down and check it out. Also make sure you look into the pub at the end of the day... its after the outfitters and railroad tracks. Take the first right and you'll see it shortly on the left. great food, drinks, and people. I'd love to go again but RSVP'd to a wedding already (knew that would come back to bite me). I'll try to put some video up soon of cucumber as well as railroad (ride the frogs back)... just BE CAREFUL at KILLER FALLS. 9,786 people have died there this past year. the only safe way to run it is backwards :)

-Robby]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7708/#msg-7708</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:55:13 -0400</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7706/#msg-7706</link>
      <author>LarryC</author>
      <description><![CDATA[No, the Lower Yough is harder than the Pigeon below the Power Station. Longer and much more technical rapids. Higher danger factor on a couple of the rapids. When the level approaches 3', the difficulty level is damn close to the Lower Ocoee. It's not as pushy at lower water levels, but you need definite boat control and it's a hard river to just bomb down. A better comparison is the French Broad at about 3000 cfs, although the Yough would still be more technical.

Larry]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7706/#msg-7706</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 06:23:45 -0400</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7702/#msg-7702</link>
      <author>cschardl</author>
      <description><![CDATA[When you say L. Yough is a notch above the Pigeon, do you mean above the upper or the lower Pigeon? The upper Pigeon is a notch above the Nanty, in my limited experience (and going by the river descriptions on the AW site).
Chris S.]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7702/#msg-7702</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:11:58 -0400</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7694/#msg-7694</link>
      <author>hanleyk1</author>
      <description><![CDATA[When George says the Lower Yough can be as easy or difficult as you make it, he makes a very good point. The Lower Yough is relatively spread out (not too continuous) and has several options to modify it's difficulty. Most importantly for our crop of semi-novice boaters coming out of the clinic this year, the Lower Yough offers a predictable water level and good opportunities to surf (i.e. practice your combat roll) in places where the water's relatively deep and the consequences are mild. There are some significant hazards, like Dimple Rock (especially Dimple Rock). However, you do have the opportunity to sneak or portage. Dimple is actually a very easy sneak. As long as you are with someone who can show you where it is and warn you before heading into it, it's pretty easy to avoid. 

So, if you feel okay on the Hiwassee or Nantahala and want to step it up a bit, I would strongly advise you to consider going on this trip to the Lower Yough.

                    Hanley]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7694/#msg-7694</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:36:01 -0400</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7652/#msg-7652</link>
      <author>acreekfreak</author>
      <description><![CDATA[The Lower Yough is a nice run. Not as difficult as the Ocoee but a good notch above the Nanty or Pigeon. Those who are starting to get bored on the Nanty should definitely  give the Lower Yough a go.

If it were not so far, I would spend several weekends there per year.

A side bonus, if you have the time and inclination, is http://www.fallingwater.org/ which is just a few miles from the put in. If your interested in this, it's best to have reservations.]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7652/#msg-7652</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:12:04 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7651/#msg-7651</link>
      <author>ezgpaddler</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Here's a link to the Lower Yough page on AW.

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/River_detail_id_1687_

The river is currently running 2ft, a very fun, playful level.]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7651/#msg-7651</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:10:39 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Lower Yough, Ohiopyle PA Intermediate trip 8/9-10</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7649/#msg-7649</link>
      <author>ezgpaddler</author>
      <description><![CDATA[This was announced at the July meeting. the trip is on for the weekend of the 9th and 10th of August, unless water levels drop to low. I'll keep the thread up to date. Anyone interested in stepping up their paddling to a solid class 3, 3+ and possible class 4-, this is an excellent river to work on your skills. The lower Yough can be as easy or difficult as you make it.]]></description>
      <category>Take Me to the River</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/28,7649,7649/#msg-7649</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:33:46 -0400</pubDate>
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