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    <title>Elkhorn Creek, KY</title>
    <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/list/send/42/</link>
    <description><![CDATA[A forum for the discussion of issues concerning the management of AW's Elkhorn Creek access by American Whitewater Affiliate Clubs.]]></description>
    <language>EN</language>
    <pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:13:48 -0400</pubDate>
    <lastBuildDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:13:48 -0400</lastBuildDate>
    <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
    <generator>Phorum 5.1.23</generator>
    <ttl>600</ttl>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,7699/#msg-7699</link>
      <author>mike46molnar</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Amen to that Hanley.  If all those warring factions could put the hatred to rest, for sure we can do the same about some stupid little argument that nobody has the class to lose. . . . . . .]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,7699/#msg-7699</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:13:48 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,7698/#msg-7698</link>
      <author>hanleyk1</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I want to be absolutely clear about my intentions. We can discuss this issue at the steering committee meeting, but I'm not going to let it dominate the entire meeting and I'm going to try to keep discussion on a productive level. For the month of August I am going to request of the club that all discussion of the EA issue be kept off the floor. I feel that the club needs a break from this issue, partly just as a matter of perspective. This club is bigger than this one issue and does not need to be consumed by it. Therefore, any motions that we wish to consider will be brought up in September. I'm sorry if this doesn't sit well with some folks, but I am confident that the issue will still be simmering nicely and waiting for us when we get back to it. 

I want to say something else. I don't expect the main players in this drama to forget the past and start loving each other, but I do think we can reach some form of resolution. The Irish Catholics and the Protestants, the Israelis and the Egyptians, the Israelis and the Palestinians, the Axis powers and the European Allies from WW II, these groups of people had real reasons to hate each other. They suffered massive casualties, bombed and terrorized each other, fought over huge important issues of political freedom, sovereignty and the right to exist and be self-determined. Nonetheless, these groups have searched for and often found common ground and have, in some instances, formed alliances or become part of the same political entity. That doesn't mean that everyone forgave everyone else and forgot about their missing limbs and/or dead friends and family, but it does mean that as a group they moved beyond their hatred of each other and found common ground. 

Surely we can do the same. Surely I am not naive to think that we can get beyond the petty differences that pepper the history of this issue and figure out how to resolve it for the future. I would be ashamed to discover otherwise.

                                 Hanley]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,7698/#msg-7698</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:05:01 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,7636/#msg-7636</link>
      <author>leachman</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Yes, I will take on the task upon the BWA deciding that the conservation officer is to take on that role.  The steering committee should come up with a recommendation to the club and the club should decide on the proposal (Hanley should we talk about this on the Steering Committee forum).  Now that the BWA has decided to move forward with ELC there should be no more debate at the meetings.  That is my hope that the debate is curbed since the decision has been made and our president is pretty adamant about not discussing EA.  I’m not saying we cant or anything.  I’m an optimist and I hope we can move forward in a positive way.

I have not looked at AW proposal lately but in my mind there needs to be a local AW representative to lead the ELC meetings.  Someone who is not be involved with EA previously or does not have some sort of personal history with the property.

Guys and Gals, FYI, I do not look at this page very much at all.  I only came here because a discussion on the BWA forum.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,7636/#msg-7636</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:04:13 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,7632/#msg-7632</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Probably the first thing we need to do, now that we have decided to move forward with AW's proposal for new management structure and approach is to focus on their proposal and nit pick on it with others from the other representative groups, such as Elkhorn Paddlers and the Vikings and interested donors and develop some dialogue on implementation.  This requires a meeting of these persons at some point, although discussion on this forum would also be fruitful.  On behalf of the BWA, it does seem logical to have our conservation officer, in this case Leachman, be our point man on behalf of the BWA. 

I think Zina's &quot;town hall&quot; meeting approach at the place in Frankfort is a good place to conduct &quot;implementation&quot; discussions for all interested persons to attend, including our &quot;point person&quot;.  I found that those meetings, by and large, demonstrated tremendous consensus on the property and the issues, regardless of the prior political structures attempted.  The AW guidelines seem to satisfy all, so, the council should really be making limited recommendations, conducting basic reporting on management status to AW and the respective clubs, and making the actual arrangements to manage the property which is, primarily, grass cut periodically, garbage picked up and some gravel or pot hole work every few years or so or as needed.  Kinda like we have been doing in the past 9 years - generally on some individuals own initiative.  Issues such as gates, donation boxes, landscaping, changing room improvements and how to best meet AW's requirement (and the neighbors requests) for port a john or other bathroom facilities given the flood zone it is in, - these are all things that the council will address with AW and their respective clubs.

Just some thoughts ya'll.  David, you want this task?  Anyone have feelings one way or the other as to who should be the BWA &quot;point man&quot; if not conservation office?

Brent]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,7632/#msg-7632</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:41:16 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,7605/#msg-7605</link>
      <author>barry</author>
      <description><![CDATA[The BWA has now voted to endorse the AW Council at it's July meeting by voting upon and passing this resolution :

“The club supports BWA involvement with other local paddling groups in building the groundwork organization for a new management group in cooperation with AW. Property management at the local level is important, as is the voice of all members from local paddling groups. Any organized representation should be such that representatives are obligated to express the majority vote of their respective clubs on all management policy.&quot; 

This wonderful development signals a beginning to the next phase toward making the new AW Council a truly effective managing entity. I'm posting in this existing thread on the Elkhorn Forum (instead of the BWA forum) in order to openly continue the discussion about how this might best proceed and to allow input from other interested (non-BWA) paddlers of the Elkhorn to participate in the discussion. 

The BWA resolution makes no mention of who would actually be representing the club on the new Council. As was suggested earlier in this thread the BWA Conservation officer and/or the President seem like logical choices to represent. 

I look forward to everyone's thoughts and discussion on this suggestion and how to move the AW Council from concept to reality. 
barryg]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,7605/#msg-7605</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:04:06 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5363/#msg-5363</link>
      <author>dmargava</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I guess so Joey, just using your logic. Dale wants some action, no problem.  He poked his finger in my chest at the Gauley for having Barry at the campground and he gave me the finger at the May Steering Committee.  Poke me again Dale or anyone else who fells the need... Get in my face and I'll get in yours.  No more mister nice guy.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5363/#msg-5363</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 16:16:50 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5361/#msg-5361</link>
      <author>jcalder</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Super, Was that comment directed to me or Dale.  Either way George is right, It's not helpful.  And by the way, the SOL was in reference to voting and absentee votes, so I don't think it works here.  Just a point of clarification.  J

From My understanding the meeting was productive in getting the majority of thoughts out.  That is progress to a degree. I anticipate seeing the minutes as I have posted previous.  Maybe one day we all can tolerate each other, obviously not in cyber space though.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5361/#msg-5361</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:58:26 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5340/#msg-5340</link>
      <author>acreekfreak</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Dave, this meeting was poorly attended because it was rushed by you, as well as others. People had their vacations planned out and being as there was not to be any  votes on anything, it was to be an information sharing meeting, there was really no need for them to reschedule the meeting, nor their vacations.

You guys are in such a rush...

To do what?

The takeout is there and isn't going anywhere.

Boaters have a very nice place to park while they're boating. It is the nicest whitewater boating access within 150 miles.

What's the rush?

One of the things that was stressed before this meeting was that it was an information gathering meeting and no votes would be taken, therefore, it was poorly attended.

yet...

there was an attempt to force a vote, even after it was pointed out that no votes were to be taken. It was an attempt at political maneuvering.

All this political crap sucks.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5340/#msg-5340</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:52:44 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5337/#msg-5337</link>
      <author>ezgpaddler</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Was that really helpful Dave?

Last night was about as productive a meeting as anyone could have expected. People were for the most part curtious, and respectful. Common goals were unveiled and discussion occurred about the best way to achieve those goals. another meeting is scheduled 4/23 to hammer out details and everyone is invited.

Lets not move backward now. Some donors were unable to attend for various reasons, ok, thats why there is a second meeting. If they fail to show up twice then the failure of responsibility falls on their shoulders and society moves forward.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5337/#msg-5337</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:33:35 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5336/#msg-5336</link>
      <author>acreekfreak</author>
      <description><![CDATA[You got to speak all you wanted to, because... you don't see the need to wait for someone else to quit talking before you shout over whatever they're trying to say.

Yes... I did try to speak, but there's only so much time at these meetings. You got your time and then some.

Would you have me shout over others as they are attempting to make their points?

That's all well and good for you, but...]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5336/#msg-5336</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:33:02 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5334/#msg-5334</link>
      <author>dmargava</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Spring break!  &quot;Twist it around&quot; - twist what around, they did not show up.  Can I use Joey's SOL line here? Were you there last night, we never heard you express yourself or do you only use the forum to insite your hostile crap?  BTW, No Pavilion, I’m praying for a mosque.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5334/#msg-5334</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:25:54 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5331/#msg-5331</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[That is an easy question to answer Dale:  have a truly representative council of paddler interests just like AW is suggesting, and which, as Bubba reminded us last night, is a reflection of ideas floated by us that are interested. Pavilion or not, which I don't care as long as AW and neighbors are fine with it, has nothing to do with the political structure of the EAMG or it's beginnings.   I think Barry and I have always wanted more voices and representation in this property beyond who has &quot;shares&quot; because of money or connections.  Anyway, I expressed these issues in detail last night as did many others that were there.  I would rather not keep repeating myself.  We probably need that recording posted for interested folks that want to hear about the details of the purchase and the perspectives expressed.  You are right that some folks were on vacation like Burgess and Molnar.  And I think John Foy cares even though he could not make it from TN.  I also failed to mention that Sockeye said he had Gary Hoagland's proxy and Dave Merrifield held proxies too.  They both raised their hands and spoke up.  All one had to do, generally, was raise a hand and those that did, got called on.  Come on Dale, you had plenty of chances to chime in or pose questions.  Why wait for the forum to express your discontent?
Brent]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5331/#msg-5331</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:16:18 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5328/#msg-5328</link>
      <author>acreekfreak</author>
      <description><![CDATA[For starters, it's spring break season and some people are vacationing. You can twist that into &quot;they don't care enough to show up&quot;, but that isn't exactly the case.

Not everybody had the chance to say what they wanted last night. I sat in on the meeting and was respectful of others rights to speak. That sometimes means that everybody does not get their turn to speak. I could have attempted to shout over other people, as some others tend to do, though... I don't think that is productive, nor is it a good way to &quot;move forward&quot;.

I was trying to ask my question last night when we ran out of time...

Back to my question...

What do you guys want done so differently that it requires a change management structure?

Pavilion?

What?]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5328/#msg-5328</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 09:49:40 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5324/#msg-5324</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Dale:
Last night would have been a good time for you to contribute points or concerns like this while people were present.  But you really said nothing much at the meeting.  You did not get into the discussion of the purchase or the motivations behind us, the ones that made it happen, so you can have access.  Of the 8 individual donors interested enough to be there, 6 of us support the AW council.  Perhaps Zina and Don do too now.  If so, that is all the interested donors present.

You use terms like &quot;Hostile&quot;, which tells me you are not moving forward.  It was the formation of the EAMG that was &quot;hostile&quot; in the first place.  It seems everyone that cares wants to move beyond the varying issues in the history of the purchase in 1999 until the mysterious formation of the &quot;EAMG&quot; a number of years later.  The donors, other than the interested ones did not show up last night.  The &quot;donor intent&quot; was manifested by those of us there last night.  We can endlessly debate the issues leading to the formation of this splinter group, or we can move forward.  I think that was what most everyone felt last night, perhaps except you.  Be nice if you would discuss things in groups with folks present rather than an endless tirade against Barry and I and whoever takes a position you oppose on the forum.  Most of the time neither of us wish to respond to your false accusations and conspiracy theories.  Please tell me what I am wanting to control.  I spoke up a fair amount last night and you had an opportunity to ask me then.  All of it is recorded with a voice recording device that Zina had.  I would encourage anyone interested to get a copy from Zina.  Please tell us what conspiracy you believe in today.  So far, they all have been garbage.  Funny that you won't share them in an open room where we can discuss and dispel your delusions.  Are you part of the solution or the problem here?  You like your shares you wield in the EAMG, don't you?  Dilution of that is what you view as a &quot;hostile takeover&quot;, isn't it?  Dude!
Brent]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5324/#msg-5324</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 09:16:36 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5321/#msg-5321</link>
      <author>acreekfreak</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Positive things for the takeout started happening in 1999 and have never really stopped. 

The positive things that have been happening have been so smooth that few even noticed any of it was happening.

Few have ever felt a need to give the paddling community a blow by blow account of the trash that's been removed, weeds cut or gravel rearranged. That doesn't mean it hasn't been happening all along.

My question is, why the need for this hostile takeover(yes... it's been pretty damned hostile), if all we want is river access?

Things went pretty smooth at the EAMG meeting last night because we all sat around and agreed that the main thing we want is access and that led to a feeling of consensus.

We have the access, but there is more to the story.

The latest strategy has been to pacify people by saying that all anybody is interested in is access.

When will the real plans be revealed?

Besides &quot;letting everybody having a say&quot;, what is the real goal here?

A pavilion?

What?]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5321/#msg-5321</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 06:51:10 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5317/#msg-5317</link>
      <author>barry</author>
      <description><![CDATA[There was generally a great spirit of cooperation at tonight's meeting. In attendance were EAMG members, SuperDave, Sockeye, Brent, Liz, DaveM, Ledgeman, Brian, Bubba, Don, Dale, Robert, Zina, DaveQ, BarryG,  plus interested BWA member GeorgeM. While Zina would not allow a vote of the people present - the consensus I witnessed was to move forward and support the formation of the Elkhorn Leadership Council. Some have concerns and want to go slow and &quot;do it right&quot;. That sounds like a fine start on a new plan and one we can all feel good about supporting. 

BTW, the new gravel to fix the pot holes and was voted on at the Elkhorn EAMG meeting last year, finally showed up at the takeout today. Seems that positive things for the takeout have already started happening.
barryg]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5317/#msg-5317</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 23:35:53 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5316/#msg-5316</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I am not.  In fact, I feel greatly encouraged that all interested persons that attended the Elkhorn meeting this evening arranged by Zina all want basically the same things.  I feel encouraged that there is a spirit to move forward and come together and set aside differences with a vision consistent with AW's published and stated objectives and guidelines.  I see the immediate next door neighbor and donor being very involved as well as some of us original donors at the meeting to work with AW and make sure the takeout is a good neighbor and safe and secure access for paddlers.  Boaters always change clothes, but, that is where changing rooms come in.  So far, naked bongo parties have not been a problem, and under the AW guidelines, I don't image they will.  Bottom line is we got access still and everyone wants to work together.  I believe the future is bright for the Elkhorn.  Let's keep working together.

Brent]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5316/#msg-5316</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 23:01:04 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5313/#msg-5313</link>
      <author>concerned</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I am scared to death for the future of the take-out, it won't take too many boathenges and naked bongo parties to get the neighbors up in arms.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5313/#msg-5313</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:40:13 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4970/#msg-4970</link>
      <author>ezgpaddler</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I realize I have recently been a pain in the ass for a few on this thread lately. I'll not apologize for that! 

I have but one hope, and that is to see the BWA positively influence the future of boaters and boating through democratic service the honorable conduct. 

Personally I don't care who manages the property so long as boaters are allowed access. But I do believe we as boaters share a responsibility to respect our peers actions and rights (fellow BWA and AW members or not). We have an established system of operation, as does the AW and the EAMG. Unless I am mistaken that system is the democratic process in which officers at each organization and at each level represent the wishes of their constituents (above personal interests) in order to insure the welfare of the ultimate resources, the boater, the river, and the environment. 

I believe it is the responsibility of each individual entrusted with a position of office to serve the individuals within the organization they represent in a selfless manor placing the interests of the majority as their primary duty. 

I am a member of other organizations (both millions strong) that actively practice this principle of operation and rarely if ever experiences deep divisions as have occurred over the Elkhorn Acres property. Yet, both of these organizations yield deep strength and influence over federal, state, local and social policy.

Gmead]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4970/#msg-4970</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 12:39:13 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4928/#msg-4928</link>
      <author>acreekfreak</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Barry... my thanks to you and the others is sincere. As I've said before... I'm floored and amazed that you guys pulled together to purchase this property.

but... let me get this straight...

Barry, you were a director for AW during the process of buying the property... yet you had not brought up the idea of giving the property to AW?

It was all Ben Newmans idea. 

Out of the clear blue.

If the AW compromise was Ben Newmans idea... what entity were you, Brent and Burgess lobbying so hard for in the heated debates?

I love history... I'm finding this quite fascinating.

The thing about history... it's written by the victors. 

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Journal_show-page_issue_2_year_2000_page_85_

This article, written by you, appears to be mostly accurate(as others who were present will attest) with a little spin towards AW/BWA(fair enough) but more importantly, it spins right past some of the key players. 

If the idea to donate this property to AW was actually Ben Newmans idea... why is his name never mentioned? How about Ben Askren, truly one of the key players in all this. His name is never mentioned once, though he is referred to. 

Ben Askren and Ben Newman's efforts towards this property were huge, if not the majority effort... yet... their names were never mentioned. They were referred to as being at the all important meeting before the sale and were involved in the heated debate... but never called by name, as were some others, who just happened to be your close friends and just happen to be &quot;on your side&quot;. 

I genuinely like most all the people involved here... on &quot;both sides&quot;... even those who adamantly disagree with my point of view. 

What I don't like is some of the tactics involved in this struggle.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4928/#msg-4928</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 18:13:44 -0400</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4927/#msg-4927</link>
      <author>leachman</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I put this on the BWA forum as well.  Sorry this is so long but I've been thinking about how I really felt about Elkhorn Acres.

Here’s my theme / motto:  “I just want to park my car there” please don’t mess that up.

Mackenzie and I bought a canoe together and started boating the Elkhorn in the Spring and Summer of 2001.  We parked our car and the Elkhorn Acres (EA) takeout.  We paid the campground folks to park at the put in.  We paddled a dozen or so times a season and we specifically paddled the Elkhorn for 3 to 4 years parking in the EA gravel parking lot the whole time.  We weren’t BWAers’ at the time.  I assumed canoe Kentucky owned the land or something and let the public use it.  We didn’t know who owned EA and we were just glad to use it for an access point for Elkhorn Creek.

This is a thanks to those folks who bought the land for me and you to park there!!! 

And Thanks to the folks who have put the infrastructure there for access to the creek even though it was done under the radar.

Now I’m a BWA member of about 4 years or so.  I learned much about the piece of property and how it was purchased through a front man at an auction who did not appear to be a boater.  Thank YOU sir.  I’m also a BWA officer and have been for two years and this is my third.  I’m a design professional and have looked at the development of the property.  I’ve talked to folks about pavilions and river walk access to the creek and other development improvements to the property.  I have heard many opinions for and against the development of the property. 

After all these years I have come to the conclusion that I am just glad I can park my car there to take off of Elkhorn creek.  Yeah the road and parking could use a little improvement.  Maybe a paved trail with gravel dust with a steel boarder (like what they have at the gardens at UK’s arboretum).  Yeah maybe a turn around would be nice for a truck and trailer.  Yes I pull the BWA canoe trailer in there once a year for the annual Ledgeman canoe trip.  But ultimately I just want to park my car there.  And I don’t want anything to mess that up like camping or to much naked partying down there.  I just want to park my car there. 

So let me get this straight.  We are thinking of creating a group to manage the property.  I thought that’s why EMAG was created?  Why recreate something that already exists?  What needs to be decided upon that is so important that a small group of individuals have gone out of there way to make EMAG fail.  Mowing?  Picking up trash?  Gravel maintenance?  Maybe a * porta potty in peak season that floats up during floods.  If you all want to create a new management group . . . whatever?   All I ask is that you don’t do anything to screw up us being able to park there.  I still don’t understand what’s so pressing or important that we need to recreate something that already exists.

There are things that could jeopardize this luxury of parking at EA.   Camping could piss off the neighbors.  Putting up a pavilion could attract local vandalism.  Less is more.  Put up a pavilion and bring in the locals and their thrash and broken bottles on our path from the take out, ouch!  AW pays the taxes, so what are the big issues that this group needs to decide upon.  EMAG was scheduled to lay gravel down this winter, right?  

Elkhorn Acres, I just want to park there.  Please don’t mess that up!

Lastly, I don’t feel the love so much anymore in the BWA.  I’ve been turned off by the forum lately.  I have been feeling pretty negative about the club ever since the summer BWA presidential election which included the controversial membership buying issue.  I’ve got my boating buddies now so why stay in the BWA?  For my BWA handbook parking pass for the Elkhorn put in?  That is just thinking negatively, right?  Can’t we all just get along?  Can’t we have fun in our club again?  I want to feel warm and fuzzy after leaving meetings.  I don’t want to feel the need to step away and pay my dues just so I can get my parking pass for the Elkhorn put in.   I want to raise above all this crap that has been going on lately and have a great clinic this spring and feel better about my boating family.  How about some positive vibes return to the BWA!

Elkhorn Acres, I just want to park there.

* You should see Larrimore’s old cabin.  That’s what he calls it anyway.  It’s an old house boat with pylons that would allow it to float up and stay stationary if the big flood came.  We could do this with the porta potty?]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4927/#msg-4927</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 17:38:11 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4901/#msg-4901</link>
      <author>ezgpaddler</author>
      <description><![CDATA[barry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
&gt; Dale, thanks for the thanks. In this post:
&gt; 
&gt; http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Forum/re
&gt; ad/send/9,4772,4890/#msg-4890
&gt; 
&gt; Does this mean you will boat with me now?
&gt; 
&gt; Meanwhile, the version of history you made up
&gt; about how AW was given the takeout is  wrong. [b]I
&gt; was at that meeting with Brent, Burg, Ben Newman,
&gt; Ben Askrin, and Prince[/b] and I vividly remember,
&gt; after some heated discussion and when no agreement
&gt; looked good, Ben Newman suddenly asked &quot;why don't
&gt; we give the land to AW&quot;?  Simple as that. No one 
&gt; forced anyone into anything. 
&gt; 
&gt; [b]Common ground was found. We went almost
&gt; immediately from gloom to zoom - came together and
&gt; got it done in 3 days. It was intensely awesome.[/b]

Bring together these individuals and the rest of theinvestors with a vote, gain a majoity for the approval of forming a new management group and then pose the question to the body of the BWA for support. That is what I´m looking for! The democratic process on this issue, not the manipulative behind the scenes discussions with AW and within private groups in the BWA prior to approval by the individuals who put up the money.

I also noted that you mentioned how everyone initially came togather through the AW, Great and that would have been about the time everyone also agreed over the present management arrangements. Remember Gloom to Zoom!]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4901/#msg-4901</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 06:58:10 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4894/#msg-4894</link>
      <author>barry</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Dale, thanks for the thanks. In this post:

http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Forum/read/send/9,4772,4890/#msg-4890

Does this mean you will boat with me now?

Meanwhile, the version of history you made up about how AW was given the takeout is  wrong. I was at that meeting with Brent, Burg, Ben Newman, Ben Askrin, and Prince and I vividly remember, after some heated discussion and when no agreement looked good, Ben Newman suddenly asked &quot;why don't we give the land to AW&quot;?  Simple as that. No one  forced anyone into anything. 

Common ground was found. We went almost immediately from gloom to zoom - came together and got it done in 3 days. It was intensely awesome. 

So you see, AW in fact brought everyone together. Then AW helped make it happen by setting up an account and accepting the tax deductible donations. Hosting online credit card donations, holding the deed, and being there for us every day of the year on the Elkhorn. If you want to thank someone then it should clearly be American Whitewater. 

I hope that you and the few others so opposed will come on board and support AW's new council  - or at the least offer productive suggestions. Why is this so hard to do? A new consensus based management structure has been put forth by AW. If we work towards agreement on that we'll get from gloom to zoom all over again:-) United we surf. Divided we swim. 
barryg]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4894/#msg-4894</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:08:15 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4758/#msg-4758</link>
      <author>ezgpaddler</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I believe the primary liason between the AW and the clubs should fall on the shoulders of the conservation officer. What better position to assure the policies set forth by the AW. further I believe the Club V.P. should be given the responsibility of secondary representative to limit possibilty of conflicts of interest as the V.P.'s authority are more limited than the presidents and they also have a much samller share of club responsibilty.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4758/#msg-4758</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:26:50 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4755/#msg-4755</link>
      <author>dmargava</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Who was the dimwit to said the road was put in the wrong place because of the swell.  Get you head out your ass and go see the swell and the pipe through Dave Quarles' road.  The swell is continuous from KOC, across EA to Quarles.  It did not take much to out do the EAMG with people like this advising them.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4755/#msg-4755</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:11:14 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4716/#msg-4716</link>
      <author>singleton</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Regarding Dale's question: Yes, AW is asking for a new management structure. The idea proposed on the call last week was that all interest groups have an equal stake in a consensus-based decision making process that follows AW property guidelines. We are currently in the process of fleshing out the details and will have a follow up call in the next few weeks.

Mark Singleton]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4716/#msg-4716</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:48:37 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4715/#msg-4715</link>
      <author>MisterMello</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I think keeping the prez as our liason and adding the consevation officer sounds like a great choice.  I agree that trying to vote someone in is a waste of energy and time.  If these two offices are willing to take on more responsibility then bravo!  I am confident that these five clubs can come to some very reasonable and timely decisions with the structure that has been suggested.  Remeber K.I.S.S.  I really like the idea that the fate of our simple little takeout will always be in the hands of current boaters, whitewater and otherwise.  It also seems like a wonderful opportunity for the five clubs to come together and enjoy events(like working on the takeout/elkhorn cleanups/parties)  It seems like a chance to get to know some birds-of-a-feather and bring our clubs closer.  

BTW-The people who would maintain the porta-potty(i hate that they use my name in vain)--do they also maintain trash cans?  Just a thought.  

Oh, and god bless those people who do maintain em'.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4715/#msg-4715</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 12:42:14 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4713/#msg-4713</link>
      <author>acreekfreak</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I see a suggestion for a new management structure, not a request. There's a difference.

If I have this confused, I beg for an AW representative to make it clear to me.

Is AW demanding a new management structure?]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4713/#msg-4713</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 12:17:19 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4711/#msg-4711</link>
      <author>acreekfreak</author>
      <description><![CDATA[While it's true that quite a few BWAer's were involved in the purchase, it is pretty misleading to claim that the BWA did it all and it's a slap in the face to the nonBWAer's who have given money and put forth efforts to purchase and maintain the property.

Quite a few of the original donors who were not BWA members, became BWA members in a good faith effort to support a local club and to try to keep a finger on the pulse of the boating community. Many have drifted away from the BWA, but are still interested in maintaining the property. 

Most of the efforts by rogue volunteers, in an effort to &quot;out do&quot; the EAMG, don't appear to fall within the guidelines posted by AW for the property. Some of these projects that were done, will be redone properly. The gravel driveway, which was routed through a low spot, contrary to EAMG plans, will probably be an ongoing problem. These same rogue volunteers who specifically ignored the EAMG's plan for routing the driveway around this low spot, now seem to be the ones fussing about the &quot;pot holes&quot;  which are mainly in this low spot in the driveway. This type of short sighted &quot;improvement&quot; to the property is one of the things the EAMG was originally trying to avoid.

I will admit that I'm guilty of some rogue volunteering of my own. For the last several years, without the permission of the EAMG or AW, I have taken it upon myself to keep the grass along the road, the driveway and the parking area mowed and have attempted to keep the trash picked up(that is a struggle) . I perform this rogue volunteer effort 2-3 times a month, in season. I use my own mower, fuel and have paid for all repairs out of my pocket, with the exception of a carb rebuild and tune up done by another rogue volunteer, with his own time and money spent on parts. He, like myself, prefers to donate his time for these efforts anonymously, yet... recent events and accusations spur me to come forth and confess my efforts.

I'm continuously floored and amazed that the original donors(represented by the EAMG) came together to purchase this property. I appreciate the donations from each and every one of them, including those whom I disagree with. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

That is why I choose to spend my time and $$$'s towards the property and I would like to see the original donors get to follow through with their management plans for the property(which closely mirror AW's guidelines), until management duties can more gracefully evolve into something else.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4711/#msg-4711</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 12:08:38 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4710/#msg-4710</link>
      <author>barry</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Dale, This topic has had volumes of discussion. AW is asking for a new entity to take over the management of the property that it owns. I invite you to re-read the remarks of the Executive Director of American Whitewater. Here's the link:
http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Forum/read/send/42,4633,4692/#msg-4692

Jen, Since you missed the SC meeting 2 weeks ago and the BWA meeting last Tuesday you may not be aware of the request by AW for a new management structure. Please see the link I provided above for more info to help you better understand what is happening with the management of the takeout going forward. 

Wes, your right - the simpler the better:-) With that objective in mind,  I think the BWA has voted in the past that the BWA President act as the EAMG rep so, the only effective change for the BWA with AW's new Elkhorn Council would be the selection of the requested backup rep which I'm suggesting could be the BWA's existing Conservation officer. As a member of the BWA SC I will be offering this up as a motion for a vote by the SC and then the full BWA membership if necessary. 

SuperDave, your spot on. Let's come together and move this forward. 
barryg]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,4710/#msg-4710</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 11:55:32 -0400</pubDate>
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