			<div   class='message  msg_warn'>
									
				You are currently not logged in or haven't verified your email in a while. Please login or complete the verifictation process to post.
				</div>
			<div style='clear:both'></div>
		<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1" ?>
<rss version="2.0">
  <channel>
    <title>BWA-Speak</title>
    <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/list/send/9/</link>
    <description><![CDATA[General BWA Message and Milling Area]]></description>
    <language>EN</language>
    <pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 01:30:47 -0500</pubDate>
    <lastBuildDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 01:30:47 -0500</lastBuildDate>
    <category>BWA-Speak</category>
    <generator>Phorum 5.1.23</generator>
    <ttl>600</ttl>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4563/#msg-4563</link>
      <author>cschardl</author>
      <description><![CDATA[foydawg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

&gt; If you end up going the council route, please get
&gt; multiple representatives from each organization
&gt; with no quorum required – only popular vote by
&gt; those in attendance.  Better yet, allow  voting
&gt; via e-mail, conference call, WebEx/GoToMeeting,
&gt; etc.

     Yes yes yes. I really thing that could be workable.
     As I mentioned, Barry, I think that the best you can and should do IMHO is to make a good faith effort attempt to get as many of the EAMG together as there is contact info available for, with the stated objective of replacing EAMG with a new management structure operating under new bylaws. No one can fault you if only a sub-quorum group can be assembled.
     Maybe BWA should have a prominent role in that. Perhaps BWA would be the designated chair of the EA cmt, responsible for coordinating meetings of that cmt. Also, surely the EA cmt should be expected to consider proposals that are presented to it from member organizations.
    Just a few more random thoughts.
Chris S.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4563/#msg-4563</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 01:30:47 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4559/#msg-4559</link>
      <author>foydawg</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I’ve been quietly reading every post here from TN and want to submit my two cents to you all.  As someone who was part of original team soliciting donations and purchasing the property at auction and as someone who served as treasurer of the EAMG for the first five to six years of it's existence, I will come out on the position that the EAMG has been an ineffective model should be replace by a more effective organization.
 
My concern with the EAMG since day one has been it’s inability to make a decision.  There are several factors that contributed to this:

1.  Beuracracy – they wanted to discuss everything over and over as a group and in sub-committees in different meetings
2.  Quorum – everything had to be decided upon by a quorum and a quorum was rarely if ever present. 
3.  Apathy – a quorum was never present because the “shareholders” themselves didn’t care enough to show up at meetings.
4.  Infrequent meetings – meetings were held only quarterly if not less often. 
 
Having said that, I’m concerned that an alternative group with the geographically diverse representation as proposed in the AW affiliate &quot;council&quot; concept will have us back to square one with apathetic council members unwilling to travel to attend meeting leading to infrequent meetings.

The great thing about the concept of the BWA taking over is every month there are general and steering committee meetings to get decisions made.  The downside to the BWA taking over is is doesn't necessarily involve the other AW affiliates interested in that property.  With respect to the desires of the original donors: If they were really concened they would have 1) attended the meetings, and 2) retained their voting &quot;rights&quot; rather than tranfer them to someone else.

If you end up going the council route, please get multiple representatives from each organization with no quorum required – only popular vote by those in attendance.  Better yet, allow  voting via e-mail, conference call, WebEx/GoToMeeting, etc.

 
Respectfully Yours,

 
John Foy]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4559/#msg-4559</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2008 15:32:17 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4544/#msg-4544</link>
      <author>mike46molnar</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Good points Fred, definitely not moot points which seem to be going 'round n 'round. . . . . . . . .]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4544/#msg-4544</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:31:59 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4525/#msg-4525</link>
      <author>acreekfreak</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Until the BWA, as a club, expresses dissatisfaction, I think talking about a compromise is premature.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4525/#msg-4525</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 13:04:51 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4524/#msg-4524</link>
      <author>ferdunerd</author>
      <description><![CDATA[So...just who is it that is going to &quot;say&quot; who is managing Elkhorn Acres?

...the EAMG is going to concede and turn it over to a new group?  Unlikely.

...AW is going to declare a winner?  Unlikely

...this will go around and around until everyone wants to puke?  Probably.

It seems to be a MOOT (not mute, obviously) point.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4524/#msg-4524</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 13:03:56 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4521/#msg-4521</link>
      <author>acreekfreak</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Barry... your description of events is purposefully inaccurate and deceptive.

I've never declined invitations by you or anyone else to discuss Elkhorn Acres management issues.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4521/#msg-4521</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 12:57:15 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4518/#msg-4518</link>
      <author>acreekfreak</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I mostly choose to donate my time anonymously and I generally try to be pretty low key about it. I'm not in it for the glory. 

Except for a couple of meetings when I was attending to my sick father, while I was Program Director for the BWA, I never missed a single Steering Committee Meeting nor a regular BWA monthly meeting and I always had a program at every single meeting.

When requested, I allowed others to present programs and I never refused anyone who requested to present a program. Yes... Barry presented a couple of programs, as did several other people. 

Since you asked...

I have run many, many, many pool sessions and volunteered my time help teach people how to roll(&amp; cartwheel), including YOU.

I've donated my time in various small ways at the BWA Spring Clinics, though, conflicts with the Angst Mystery Nationals sometimes distracted me, as well as did  attending to my sick father this past year.

I've been involved in several creek cleanups and have spent more than my fair share of time picking up trash, beating down the weeds, rearranging gravel and filling holes in the field at Elkhorn Acres.

I've spent dozens and dozens and dozens of hours working with the NPFF. For a couple of years, I dubbed and proofed all the dvd's for the NPFF as well as all the road shows. A very time consuming process, as Bubba will testify. Over the years, I've helped with the silent auction, clean up, food, etc... basically, trying to take up the slack where it was needed. This year it was with food and attempting to help keep the food area clean and helping to get people fed.

I did much of that NPFF volunteer ism while you were the head of the NPFF. Were you unaware of my donations of time or is selective memory kicking in, now that we find ourselves on opposite sides of an issue?

 

Again... I prefer to volunteer anonymously... I don't bang the drum every time I pick up a broom...]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4518/#msg-4518</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 12:43:01 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4511/#msg-4511</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Dale:
Does that mean you will not seek compromise or work towards a conciliatory result?  
Brent]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4511/#msg-4511</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 11:30:33 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4510/#msg-4510</link>
      <author>acreekfreak</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Brent... my opinions on this have already changed.

In my ignorance, I bought into the position stated by Super and Barry before I had any experience with the EAMG.

Then I showed up at the EAMG meetings(as a last resort representative for the Vikings), ready to be disgusted with the group and with the intent of trying to re-invent the group. What I witnessed at these meetings was something very different than what I had been led to believe.

As a result of my experience within that group, I changed my mind. I now believe that it is the best group to manage that property. The BWA, Vikings and Elkhorn Paddlers have representation within that group without one single entity being able to dominate the group. To the best of my knowledge, the BWA has not expressed a problem within that group, other than now that you are President.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4510/#msg-4510</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 11:23:15 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4507/#msg-4507</link>
      <author>dmargava</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Dale, I fine it interesting coming from you of all people, your criticism of the Mike and others who have been involved, volunteered, did the work and have for many many years.  And it comes from a person who avoids responsibility, rarely if ever volunteered, who mantra has always been “Paddle or help, I paddle”, who has done as little as possible to get by is now telling everyone how it should be - since you got a free ride via Valerie and Ben.  OH Boy, you're willing to video everyone else cleaning up the Elkhorn, what a guy...  Work is not exactly in your vocabulary.  While you’re at it why don’t you give us a run down of the Programs you presented when you were BWA Program Director?  As I remember you did not attend and when you did several of your programs were provided by Barry Grimes!  And I can’t remember the last BWA meeting you attended lately?  Yes, I see why the EAMG is to your liking, they did nothing. Bullshit back at ya…  

I would like to see a way we all can work together, and those who can’t go away. I’ll see everyone at the meeting.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4507/#msg-4507</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 11:12:10 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4506/#msg-4506</link>
      <author>barry</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Wes, thanks for posting. Dale's personal attacks are legendary - I know because I have been the target of them for quite awhile now. His most recent attacks which are demonizing me and Brent over on the Viking forum border on defamation. I no longer respond directly to Dale because he is not at all interested in talking or working things out. I have been contacted by Viking members who are so blow away by Dale's ceaseless rants that they have actually come and paddled with me and Brent to check to see if we have grown tails and are carrying pitchforks. Let me state for the record we do not have tails and we both carry kayak paddles :-) 

I have attempted, as have others, on numerous occasions to talk to Dale - face to face. But he refuses to meet and discuss instead choosing to relentlessly and personally attack online instead. Once when I tried to talk to him about the EAMG situation at the Elkhorn putin one day he didn't say a word but just flipped me the bird and hurried into his boat and paddled away. 

Does this sound like an individual who is interested in compromise and working out the situation to the benefit of all the stake holders? Not from my perspective. 

Hanley, there are and will be many more decisions that need to made about the land in the future. Some will be controversial like the recent event camping, construction of a pavilion, having a festival or how to fix the pot holes. Some will be mundane and something that most everyone can agree upon like when to mow the grass or when to rent a porta potti. Your suggestions on how to proceed and rational for them make good sense and may have merit.  I thank you for sticking to the real question which I and others have tried to civilly raise and what we should all be focusing our energy upon - where do we go from here? i look forward to talking to you about that tonight face to face at the SC. CU then. 
barryg]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4506/#msg-4506</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 11:02:29 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4505/#msg-4505</link>
      <author>hanleyk1</author>
      <description><![CDATA[All this bickering is pointless. What does everyone want for the future of EA and a management group?

There is a lot of talk about Democracy and Representing the Stakeholders/shareholders. 

As a semi-clueless outsider, let me make a somewhat radical suggestion and you can do what you want with it, including ignore it. The future of the property doesn't really have much to do with Democracy or Stakeholders. All parties seem to claim over and over again that they really aren't trying to control the property, and why would they? Who would want to and what possible benefit would it bring? What kinds of earth shattering decisions are going to be made about this property that require people from five distinct groups and separated by hundreds of miles to come together on a regular basis and debate? It's hard enough just to get our little club to agree on something, let alone a group several times larger with more diverse persons represented.

I suggested that we might elect a very small group of managers. My idea was not that they would represent the interests of the various groups because then they have to report back and get approvals and debate on multiple levels, etc. My suggestion was that they be elected to make decisions independently, based on the degree that the voters trust them to make good decisions, and that those decisions be based on the needs of the property, rather than the interests of various groups. You would want to have a mechanism in place to override their decisions in an extreme circumstance, but otherwise they would act independently. 

A large group may be completely democratic, but that doesn't mean it's capable of accomplishing anything. Pure democracy is only manageable on a very small scale and breaks down as it gets larger, which is why we live in a republic. Democracy is a much misunderstood term and all too often is simply used to suggest a process that is fair and effective. 

Question: Of the numerous members of AW out there, how many of you vote on every little thing that AW does? ...Exactly. That's why AW actually manages to get things done. I suggest that we look at this model a bit more closely and on a much smaller scale. Right now we are wasting too much effort struggling with non-issues. Let's try to put our differences aside, forget about who may have done what or been falsely or rightly accused of what, and focus on an agreement that will satisfy everyone and put this issue to bed.

                Hanley]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4505/#msg-4505</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 10:40:19 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4503/#msg-4503</link>
      <author>Powhoundus</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Sorry forgot to sign .. that tirade was from me.
Wes]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4503/#msg-4503</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 10:18:23 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4502/#msg-4502</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Dale:
Well, ok, I thought you were quoting me at the last BWA meeting.

As far as the deference to the BWA about camping before the meeting, talk to Zina about her communications with AW in August 07.  I have never misled AW nor the BWA on this topic.  I have voiced by belief as an individual donor about the whole affair before and after I was the BWA President to BWA folks and AW folks.  I have never told AW that there was a decision or vote by the body of the BWA that they were for or against EAMG.  I never told the BWA that AW was soley looking to it to manage the property.  I may have alluded that I thought AW would defer to the BWA on a decision to camp there and when the suggestion was raised, and indicated that we could check with AW. (I went ahead and did that.)  I did tell Mark that the vote was unanimous.  At that time I was completely unaware that there was anyone abstaining during the vote.  I have tried to be forthright, yet firm with my own well intentioned beliefs about the Elkhorn property.  I have been with it since the beginning.  I believe I have a right to a voice about a matter that I was intimately involved with.  I respect others rights to disagree with me.  I still think many of the original donors would have imagined the BWA managing AW's property at some point in time.

I do not understand why anyone thinks the shareholder system is preferred over the Affiliate representation system.  I don't understand how anyone thinks the EAMG is a legal entity that cannot be easily challenged in a court of law.  I don't understand why we cannot all agree on a structure that is fair and representative of all the interested persons, in the spirit of compromise?   As I recall from a long phone conversation last summer, we agree on many if not most of the management actions and issues.  We just disagree about the organizational structure.  I think everyone that is watching this issue has learned alot about the history of the purchase and all the issues since then.  What is anyone holding onto with the EAMG?  It is a political structure and issue that is the debate.  If you don't want your shares, they why do you even care about the EAMG?  (Intent of donors you may say?  Which ones?)  Do you believe the transfer of shares was even a valid transfer?  What provision in the organization structure including Bylaws (contested), meetings and minutes authorized that?

The real management issues I believe most would agree with.  There may be some that prefer a pavillion as Jbob suggested.  You and I know that I really don't and never have cared about that.  We discussed that last summer during that hour and a half phone conversation.  I can go either way on that one.  I really don't care about camping that much either.  I have not camped there.  I would probably vote for limited camping like at NPFF, but, I would not care in the least if I lost in that vote.  All that is great fodder for all the Affiliate clubs and AW to address down the road.

Why can't we forge a solution Dale?  You have a lot of influence and political clout amongst paddlers in the BWA and the Vikings.  There are a lot of folks that listen to you.  If it is not about personality conflicts, then work with us on a fair and final solution to the political makeup of AW's voice re:  the Elkhorn takeout.  I think I have compromised from my position that it should be the BWA running this.  Can't you back off your position that it should be EAMG with it's offensive shareholder system?

Brent]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4502/#msg-4502</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 10:13:57 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4499/#msg-4499</link>
      <author>Powhoundus</author>
      <description><![CDATA[OK I have kept out of this thing because I'm not in the donor club nor was I around when the purchase went down. But this whole discussion is getting frustrating, because it appears some are arguing just to argue. Yep, I'll admit, I'm getting more pissed every time Dale types. I'm not into nepotism / political cronyism so I won't go around trying to collect / horde &quot;shares / votes&quot; or collaborators. However, since I do boat there on occasion, and am a BWA member, I DO have an interest in how EA is managed. As someone already said, it's just a takeout. I've seen some great ideas / suggestions on how to procede in a positive direction with this can of worms ... then like Old Faithful ... bam! another finger pointing post from Dale wanting proof of alleged conversations and for folks to be &quot;called out&quot; on their claims. I have to wonder, how many conspiracy newsletters do you subscribe to? I wholeheartedly agree with Brent's efforts to put the old politics aside and do something positive. I commend him for actually begging (more than once) to let this old politics BS go, find some common ground and move on. Based on the crap he and Barry have been facing here, they have shown remarkable restraint ... sorry, but I couldn't. Dale you repeatedly personally attacked re: this issue and have not faced the same in retaliation... until now. As others have pointed out, your beloved EAMG is NOT working. The mudholes are getting bigger, gravel / work is needed. As you stated in the first msg, the EAMG meets, after 2 mos notice. 2 mos? Following that protocol, doesn't look like anything would be done anytime soon. When was the last time EAMG met? Others have acted without authorization because EAMG, as a group at least, was not up to the task. Earlier you said you would be happy to see a club vote and other groups fairly represented (as I recall). If that is truly what you want, then why do you keep arguing when that is exactly what Brent and others are suggesting? Forming a fairly represented group to give them a shot at getting something done.

Now in the interest of moving forward ... Please! ... I have a different idea. It seems there is a lot of concern about everyone that utilizes the takeout being fairly represented re: decisions for the property. Good idea. Keeping in mind that it's 'Just a takeout' I'm wondering if there is some way we could set it up so that everyone has a voice. There could be a committee, consisting of a handful of folks as has been suggested... call it the EA Mgmt Group or whatever. But if I have an idea for something that should be done or changed about EA, and my representative doesn't agree with me ... how's my voice going to be heard? My suggestion, is to set up another forum heading on AW site entitled &quot;Elkhorn Acres&quot;. In that forum will be all discussion re: mgmt of the site. If someone has an idea / suggestion... post it... then those that care discuss it for a standard period ... say 5d to a week and then vote by simple posting yea / nay. I can't think of a good reason why physical meetings would ever be required. Would be best to have a few elected individuals to be responsible for counting the votes and implementing (in a timely manner) the decided actions ... calling for gravel, cutting grass, managing funds, etc. Again, they could be nominated / elected via the forum. Don't think it would matter which club they belonged to ... all that cared would have a voice for nominating and electing them. Think you would have to be an AW member to participate on the site, but since it's AW property, you should be anyway! Would it leave out folks that aren't online ... yep but really there is no reason in 2008 that you can't get online somewhere to participate. Please can we drop the BS for once and move on?]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4499/#msg-4499</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 09:47:27 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4495/#msg-4495</link>
      <author>acreekfreak</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I've never asked anybody for shares and that includes Burgess.

As far as I know... none of the people who have had shares passed to them have asked for them. 

Valerie and Hoagie both emailed me out of the blue to pass on their shares to me. I did not ask for them and I would gladly pass my shares along, if I thought it would solve anything. 

The quote is from a post by Barry Grimes.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4495/#msg-4495</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 09:26:28 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4492/#msg-4492</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[You know, it is interesting to hear the hearsay attributed to me, in fact, quotes by a person who did not hear them because he doesn't attend meetings.  Dale, I am not sure you ever concede anything.  I can't get you to even want to reach a compromise on something.  The BWA can and has debated this.  Where are we?  Dale pointing fingers again at his perceived enemies, me and Barry, while clamoring for his multiple illicit shares he commands in the always defunct EAMG.  Maybe the EAMG should just fight it out amongst themselves in court to see if they really ever had the authority to form and act.  Donors have a right to complain about the EAMG.  Non-donors really don't, especially if they were gifted shares in a transfer that was never legal.  I know Dale wants to get down and nasty (throw elbows), but, I would prefer a compromise and I have been compromising ever since my early well founded belief that this should all be run through the BWA.  Affiliate clubs do not have voice as long as someone like Dale is accumulating shares and votes.  I even heard that Dale solicited Burgess for 4 shares.  Maybe I am wrong on that.  Dale, please give up your fantasy for Dalekhorn.  See you tonight I hope?
Brent]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4492/#msg-4492</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 08:59:32 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4491/#msg-4491</link>
      <author>acreekfreak</author>
      <description><![CDATA[The BWA already has representation within the EAMG. To hear some tell it... it's all BWA already. 

The Vikings and Elkhorn Paddlers have their voices within the EAMG and don't seem to have any complaints.

What happened to the Vikings and Elkhorn Paddlers voices when Brent/Barry claimed at the latest BWA meeting that... and I quote... &quot;AW still owns the property and has expressly stated that it wants the BWA to decide what to do there&quot;

It's just a few very vocal &quot;individuals&quot; who don't feel as though &quot;their&quot; voice is large enough that have a problem within the current system. These are also the individuals  who have been lobbying hard to have the BWA named as managing body for the Elkhorn Acres. They will concede... when called on it... to include the Vikings &amp; Elkhorn Paddlers... but over and over... it's been the BWA that they've demanded be the managing body.

We're not talking about the BWA feeling as though their voice isn't large enough... 'cuz the BWA, as a group, has never expressed a dissatisfaction with their voice within the EAMG.

Again... if the BWA has discussions on this and votes otherwise, I'll concede... but... they haven't been given the chance.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4491/#msg-4491</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 08:37:51 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4490/#msg-4490</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[AW has a problem with EAMG because of the shareholder system primarily.  They are alarmed at the transfer of shares and the accumulation of shares by individuals.  They are aware of the problems within the donors (not just shareholders) and have been for years.    They believe that a simple solution exists.  I do too.  BWA will have representation on such a council.  I cannot imagine that the BWA would want to have no voice in the property.  Mark Singleton will be back on Monday.  He is willing to give attention to this issue.  Thanks again for your personal insults and attacks Dale.
Brent]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4490/#msg-4490</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 08:17:15 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4489/#msg-4489</link>
      <author>acreekfreak</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Nearest I can tell... AW only has a problem with the EAMG because Brent, as President of the BWA, misrepresented the BWA's position to AW.

AW has never expressed having a problem with the EAMG until Brent/Barry convinced them that the BWA had a problem with it. 

Now... AW or Mark Singleton thinks the BWA is dissatisfied with the EAMG. 

That may be the case... but... the BWA, as a club has never really discussed it. 

If the BWA determines, as a club, that we really have a problem with the EAMG, then we should work from there.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4489/#msg-4489</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 08:10:00 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4488/#msg-4488</link>
      <author>jboater</author>
      <description><![CDATA[To all parties that attend the meeting tonight.  

   I am getting ready to go to work and before I do I would like to ask all of you to please behave tonight at the meeting.  Lets stick to the issues and in this case I think we need to be sticklers on ye ol Roberts rules.  Lets also keep in mind that this is a discussion on what the BWA wants. There has not been any official overthrow of the EAMG as of yet so lets keep that in mind.  NO PERSONAL ATTACKS!!!!]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4488/#msg-4488</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 08:08:50 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4487/#msg-4487</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Meryl:
It is always about the landowner - AW.  It is about democracy for those Affiliates that wish to be involved in AW's property.  Not about who is gifted magical shares created out of thin air by a sub group of donors and being clamored for by other nondonors.  It is about equal representation by Affiliates of AW - pure and simple.  No more congregating shares and transfering shares by individuals.  It is about putting to bed a divisive issue.  It is divisive and the EAMG has always been broken.  Thanks for asking.
Brent]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4487/#msg-4487</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 08:08:29 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4486/#msg-4486</link>
      <author>meryldouglas</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Interesting. Before it was all about democracy and what the boating community wants, now it's all about the landowner. What is it really, Brent?]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4486/#msg-4486</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 08:01:30 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4485/#msg-4485</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Joey c:
It is not about whether others are upset with EAMG or not.  They do not know that much about them, probably even less than many current BWAers that have not been around for the EAMG debates for 8 years.  It is about whether they would like representation on a Council or not.  They could decline.  It is really about what AW wants.  They are not served by a shareholder system like that configured by the EAMG.  If there are no complaints about how the property has been managed, then, they can thank the BWA who has done it all.
Brent]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4485/#msg-4485</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 07:49:55 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4484/#msg-4484</link>
      <author>rineymack</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Again, it sounds like the proposal is to replace the existing management group with a new management group.  Again, it sounds like there are several valid concerns regarding Elkhorn Acres and a proposal for a new and improved management group.  However, some of the comments are suggesting a division and diversion of the group by &quot;redeveloping&quot; the group.  These comments are not suggesting an action plan within the current organization.  The comments are not suggesting that we can work together to improve the current organization, but appear to me to be critical and judgmental.  Let us all remember that ideas and words are free, it is who and how it will be implemented that makes all the difference and all the cost.  Luckily, we have had volunteers step up to ensure the Acres has been appropriately groomed.  Both Dale Perry and Dave M. have shown their value in this area.

I respect the history of the existing management group and those who have worked hard, volunteered, discussed, planned, donated and protected the property thus far with the vision of preservation and safety.  It is my opinion that the existing group should take the lead...and if there are concerns, it seems that there is a process within the existing group to address these concerns outside of a coup d’état (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_de_tat).

As far as I know, I am a member of the management group (although not an original donor) and am happy to volunteer to attend meetings and to assist in helping the group to follow through with some of its charges, such as the gravel.   It sounds like there is a simple &quot;to do&quot; or &quot;honey do&quot; list that needs to get done on a regular basis.  If the argument is about getting stuff done, then I know several volunteers of the management group who are worthy of getting it done (Did you see who was volunteer of the month?  Did you know he also is a member of the management group?).  It also sounds like existing members of the management group are willing to re-activate the cause.  I am happy to assist in discussing how we can ensure that all affiliate groups/input is represented during decisions regarding the land.  It would surprise me more than a second trip down Double Suck if the other members felt less.  

Joey's comment of doing a sort of needs assessment, or survey, of the affiliate clubs regarding areas of improvement for the Acres (both in terms of management and general improvement) is a worthy comment. 

Listen—Meagan Sisk needs to be asked her thoughts.  Now there’s a girl who can get it done.  

Let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater….Charlie can’t swim….yet….]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4484/#msg-4484</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 00:00:21 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4483/#msg-4483</link>
      <author>jcalder</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Have other AW affiliates and local clubs been contacted to see if they are upset with the current EAMG set-up or if they are interested in being part of this plan that is being hashed out on the BWA forum.  If so, what are their thoughts/comments?]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4483/#msg-4483</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 23:38:57 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>AW council of Affiliates?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4480/#msg-4480</link>
      <author>barry</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I hope we all would agree that the key goal is to reach a consensus - the basic necessity for any group of volunteers to be effective . Unfortunately, consensus is something the EAMG has consistently and miserably failed to ever deliver. The EAMG has not met the needs of it's stake holders.

Latest example of the EAMG's neglect of the takeout is the lack of gravel (or whatever divisive solution) to fill the potholes in the road to the parking area. Shuttle cars are driving around the mud hole - making it bigger. If the Rain Gods continue to bless us, soon we'll have a nice field of mud to wallow in. To stop that from happening please stop driving through the mud holes till it's fixed. Who knows when that will happen? The EAMG has been talking about this and supposedly directing action to fix it for months yet... nothing happens.The EAMG is not meeting the basic needs of the takeout.

The EAMG is broken for whatever reason you care to pick and has been a failure at responding and making decisions for the land almost from the moment it handed over the money to AW to buy the land. See SuperDave's post for more details. It's clear to many that things will be continue to be in gridlock without significant change. 

A new idea is being discussed among boaters about doing something else. A lot of this plan has been taking shape while folks have been hanging out at the takeout and kicking it around over an adult beverage after a cool day of fun on the mighty Elkhorn. 

Some are asking what if decisions about the land were assumed by a new council composed of representatives from all of the AW Affiliates in KY?

Current AW Affiliates include the BWA, VCC, and the BB. The EP could also participate if they became an AW Affiliate.

Under the new proposal, each AW Affiliate elects a representative who would then sit in council with the other Affiliate representatives. This council would report to AW and make sure regular maintenance is performed. They could also do fund drives, ponder/present suggestions for improvements/changes for the land and then report back to their respective clubs for discussion,voting and recommendations to AW. 

To help with communication between the Affiliates and the stake holders a new AW Elkhorn Forum could be created where discussions, news and announcements about the land could take place.

This plan would create an ever refreshing membership of boaters interested in the Elkhorn takeout and a fair, open democracy among stake holders going forward. United we stand:-) Who will support this plan? And if not, then how would you improve it?
barryg]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4480/#msg-4480</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 22:52:45 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4479/#msg-4479</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Er, ok Dale.  
Brent]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4479/#msg-4479</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:50:17 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4477/#msg-4477</link>
      <author>acreekfreak</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Brent, you keep trying to turn this into a personal issue. 

It's a lame strategy and an attempt to distract people from the real issues.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4477/#msg-4477</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:30:28 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Elkhorn Acres Management</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4476/#msg-4476</link>
      <author>acreekfreak</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Mike... I'm not trying to pick on you... 

I could as easily have turned all that around and tried to claim you were picking on me by claiming I was driving all this because of my personal issues with Barry.

I didn't do that.

This isn't personal. Please don't keep beating that drum. 

It distracts people from the real issues.]]></description>
      <category>BWA-Speak</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/9,4302,4476/#msg-4476</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:24:22 -0500</pubDate>
    </item>
  </channel>
</rss>
