OK I have kept out of this thing because I'm not in the donor club nor was I around when the purchase went down. But this whole discussion is getting frustrating, because it appears some are arguing just to argue. Yep, I'll admit, I'm getting more pissed every time Dale types. I'm not into nepotism / political cronyism so I won't go around trying to collect / horde "shares / votes" or collaborators. However, since I do boat there on occasion, and am a BWA member, I DO have an interest in how EA is managed. As someone already said, it's just a takeout. I've seen some great ideas / suggestions on how to procede in a positive direction with this can of worms ... then like Old Faithful ... bam! another finger pointing post from Dale wanting proof of alleged conversations and for folks to be "called out" on their claims. I have to wonder, how many conspiracy newsletters do you subscribe to? I wholeheartedly agree with Brent's efforts to put the old politics aside and do something positive. I commend him for actually begging (more than once) to let this old politics BS go, find some common ground and move on. Based on the crap he and Barry have been facing here, they have shown remarkable restraint ... sorry, but I couldn't. Dale you repeatedly personally attacked re: this issue and have not faced the same in retaliation... until now. As others have pointed out, your beloved EAMG is NOT working. The mudholes are getting bigger, gravel / work is needed. As you stated in the first msg, the EAMG meets, after 2 mos notice. 2 mos? Following that protocol, doesn't look like anything would be done anytime soon. When was the last time EAMG met? Others have acted without authorization because EAMG, as a group at least, was not up to the task. Earlier you said you would be happy to see a club vote and other groups fairly represented (as I recall). If that is truly what you want, then why do you keep arguing when that is exactly what Brent and others are suggesting? Forming a fairly represented group to give them a shot at getting something done.

Now in the interest of moving forward ... Please! ... I have a different idea. It seems there is a lot of concern about everyone that utilizes the takeout being fairly represented re: decisions for the property. Good idea. Keeping in mind that it's 'Just a takeout' I'm wondering if there is some way we could set it up so that everyone has a voice. There could be a committee, consisting of a handful of folks as has been suggested... call it the EA Mgmt Group or whatever. But if I have an idea for something that should be done or changed about EA, and my representative doesn't agree with me ... how's my voice going to be heard? My suggestion, is to set up another forum heading on AW site entitled "Elkhorn Acres". In that forum will be all discussion re: mgmt of the site. If someone has an idea / suggestion... post it... then those that care discuss it for a standard period ... say 5d to a week and then vote by simple posting yea / nay. I can't think of a good reason why physical meetings would ever be required. Would be best to have a few elected individuals to be responsible for counting the votes and implementing (in a timely manner) the decided actions ... calling for gravel, cutting grass, managing funds, etc. Again, they could be nominated / elected via the forum. Don't think it would matter which club they belonged to ... all that cared would have a voice for nominating and electing them. Think you would have to be an AW member to participate on the site, but since it's AW property, you should be anyway! Would it leave out folks that aren't online ... yep but really there is no reason in 2008 that you can't get online somewhere to participate. Please can we drop the BS for once and move on?

Dale:
Well, ok, I thought you were quoting me at the last BWA meeting.

As far as the deference to the BWA about camping before the meeting, talk to Zina about her communications with AW in August 07. I have never misled AW nor the BWA on this topic. I have voiced by belief as an individual donor about the whole affair before and after I was the BWA President to BWA folks and AW folks. I have never told AW that there was a decision or vote by the body of the BWA that they were for or against EAMG. I never told the BWA that AW was soley looking to it to manage the property. I may have alluded that I thought AW would defer to the BWA on a decision to camp there and when the suggestion was raised, and indicated that we could check with AW. (I went ahead and did that.) I did tell Mark that the vote was unanimous. At that time I was completely unaware that there was anyone abstaining during the vote. I have tried to be forthright, yet firm with my own well intentioned beliefs about the Elkhorn property. I have been with it since the beginning. I believe I have a right to a voice about a matter that I was intimately involved with. I respect others rights to disagree with me. I still think many of the original donors would have imagined the BWA managing AW's property at some point in time.

I do not understand why anyone thinks the shareholder system is preferred over the Affiliate representation system. I don't understand how anyone thinks the EAMG is a legal entity that cannot be easily challenged in a court of law. I don't understand why we cannot all agree on a structure that is fair and representative of all the interested persons, in the spirit of compromise? As I recall from a long phone conversation last summer, we agree on many if not most of the management actions and issues. We just disagree about the organizational structure. I think everyone that is watching this issue has learned alot about the history of the purchase and all the issues since then. What is anyone holding onto with the EAMG? It is a political structure and issue that is the debate. If you don't want your shares, they why do you even care about the EAMG? (Intent of donors you may say? Which ones?) Do you believe the transfer of shares was even a valid transfer? What provision in the organization structure including Bylaws (contested), meetings and minutes authorized that?

The real management issues I believe most would agree with. There may be some that prefer a pavillion as Jbob suggested. You and I know that I really don't and never have cared about that. We discussed that last summer during that hour and a half phone conversation. I can go either way on that one. I really don't care about camping that much either. I have not camped there. I would probably vote for limited camping like at NPFF, but, I would not care in the least if I lost in that vote. All that is great fodder for all the Affiliate clubs and AW to address down the road.

Why can't we forge a solution Dale? You have a lot of influence and political clout amongst paddlers in the BWA and the Vikings. There are a lot of folks that listen to you. If it is not about personality conflicts, then work with us on a fair and final solution to the political makeup of AW's voice re: the Elkhorn takeout. I think I have compromised from my position that it should be the BWA running this. Can't you back off your position that it should be EAMG with it's offensive shareholder system?

Brent

Sorry forgot to sign .. that tirade was from me.
Wes

All this bickering is pointless. What does everyone want for the future of EA and a management group?

There is a lot of talk about Democracy and Representing the Stakeholders/shareholders.

As a semi-clueless outsider, let me make a somewhat radical suggestion and you can do what you want with it, including ignore it. The future of the property doesn't really have much to do with Democracy or Stakeholders. All parties seem to claim over and over again that they really aren't trying to control the property, and why would they? Who would want to and what possible benefit would it bring? What kinds of earth shattering decisions are going to be made about this property that require people from five distinct groups and separated by hundreds of miles to come together on a regular basis and debate? It's hard enough just to get our little club to agree on something, let alone a group several times larger with more diverse persons represented.

I suggested that we might elect a very small group of managers. My idea was not that they would represent the interests of the various groups because then they have to report back and get approvals and debate on multiple levels, etc. My suggestion was that they be elected to make decisions independently, based on the degree that the voters trust them to make good decisions, and that those decisions be based on the needs of the property, rather than the interests of various groups. You would want to have a mechanism in place to override their decisions in an extreme circumstance, but otherwise they would act independently.

A large group may be completely democratic, but that doesn't mean it's capable of accomplishing anything. Pure democracy is only manageable on a very small scale and breaks down as it gets larger, which is why we live in a republic. Democracy is a much misunderstood term and all too often is simply used to suggest a process that is fair and effective.

Question: Of the numerous members of AW out there, how many of you vote on every little thing that AW does? ...Exactly. That's why AW actually manages to get things done. I suggest that we look at this model a bit more closely and on a much smaller scale. Right now we are wasting too much effort struggling with non-issues. Let's try to put our differences aside, forget about who may have done what or been falsely or rightly accused of what, and focus on an agreement that will satisfy everyone and put this issue to bed.

Hanley

Wes, thanks for posting. Dale's personal attacks are legendary - I know because I have been the target of them for quite awhile now. His most recent attacks which are demonizing me and Brent over on the Viking forum border on defamation. I no longer respond directly to Dale because he is not at all interested in talking or working things out. I have been contacted by Viking members who are so blow away by Dale's ceaseless rants that they have actually come and paddled with me and Brent to check to see if we have grown tails and are carrying pitchforks. Let me state for the record we do not have tails and we both carry kayak paddles :-)

I have attempted, as have others, on numerous occasions to talk to Dale - face to face. But he refuses to meet and discuss instead choosing to relentlessly and personally attack online instead. Once when I tried to talk to him about the EAMG situation at the Elkhorn putin one day he didn't say a word but just flipped me the bird and hurried into his boat and paddled away.

Does this sound like an individual who is interested in compromise and working out the situation to the benefit of all the stake holders? Not from my perspective.

Hanley, there are and will be many more decisions that need to made about the land in the future. Some will be controversial like the recent event camping, construction of a pavilion, having a festival or how to fix the pot holes. Some will be mundane and something that most everyone can agree upon like when to mow the grass or when to rent a porta potti. Your suggestions on how to proceed and rational for them make good sense and may have merit. I thank you for sticking to the real question which I and others have tried to civilly raise and what we should all be focusing our energy upon - where do we go from here? i look forward to talking to you about that tonight face to face at the SC. CU then.
barryg

Dale, I fine it interesting coming from you of all people, your criticism of the Mike and others who have been involved, volunteered, did the work and have for many many years. And it comes from a person who avoids responsibility, rarely if ever volunteered, who mantra has always been “Paddle or help, I paddle”, who has done as little as possible to get by is now telling everyone how it should be - since you got a free ride via Valerie and Ben. OH Boy, you're willing to video everyone else cleaning up the Elkhorn, what a guy... Work is not exactly in your vocabulary. While you’re at it why don’t you give us a run down of the Programs you presented when you were BWA Program Director? As I remember you did not attend and when you did several of your programs were provided by Barry Grimes! And I can’t remember the last BWA meeting you attended lately? Yes, I see why the EAMG is to your liking, they did nothing. Bullshit back at ya…

I would like to see a way we all can work together, and those who can’t go away. I’ll see everyone at the meeting.

Mr. Margavage

Brent... my opinions on this have already changed.

In my ignorance, I bought into the position stated by Super and Barry before I had any experience with the EAMG.

Then I showed up at the EAMG meetings(as a last resort representative for the Vikings), ready to be disgusted with the group and with the intent of trying to re-invent the group. What I witnessed at these meetings was something very different than what I had been led to believe.

As a result of my experience within that group, I changed my mind. I now believe that it is the best group to manage that property. The BWA, Vikings and Elkhorn Paddlers have representation within that group without one single entity being able to dominate the group. To the best of my knowledge, the BWA has not expressed a problem within that group, other than now that you are President.

Dale:
Does that mean you will not seek compromise or work towards a conciliatory result?
Brent

I mostly choose to donate my time anonymously and I generally try to be pretty low key about it. I'm not in it for the glory.

Except for a couple of meetings when I was attending to my sick father, while I was Program Director for the BWA, I never missed a single Steering Committee Meeting nor a regular BWA monthly meeting and I always had a program at every single meeting.

When requested, I allowed others to present programs and I never refused anyone who requested to present a program. Yes... Barry presented a couple of programs, as did several other people.

Since you asked...

I have run many, many, many pool sessions and volunteered my time help teach people how to roll(& cartwheel), including YOU.

I've donated my time in various small ways at the BWA Spring Clinics, though, conflicts with the Angst Mystery Nationals sometimes distracted me, as well as did attending to my sick father this past year.

I've been involved in several creek cleanups and have spent more than my fair share of time picking up trash, beating down the weeds, rearranging gravel and filling holes in the field at Elkhorn Acres.

I've spent dozens and dozens and dozens of hours working with the NPFF. For a couple of years, I dubbed and proofed all the dvd's for the NPFF as well as all the road shows. A very time consuming process, as Bubba will testify. Over the years, I've helped with the silent auction, clean up, food, etc... basically, trying to take up the slack where it was needed. This year it was with food and attempting to help keep the food area clean and helping to get people fed.

I did much of that NPFF volunteer ism while you were the head of the NPFF. Were you unaware of my donations of time or is selective memory kicking in, now that we find ourselves on opposite sides of an issue?



Again... I prefer to volunteer anonymously... I don't bang the drum every time I pick up a broom...

Barry... your description of events is purposefully inaccurate and deceptive.

I've never declined invitations by you or anyone else to discuss Elkhorn Acres management issues.