Dale:
I don't recall you being at the election meeting. Did you give Meryl your proxy to vote for your candidate of choice at the election? You are really good a misquoting folks at meetings that you did not attend. Meryl asked about my position at the election. I responded. She had no follow up questions about it. I note that if she is not satisfied, she follows up with questions. I did not want to have a fight over EAMG and was content to let it sit sideways to be dealt with internally. But, I will not run from a fight on it because I believe and have always believed that the organization is politically unfair, was railroaded down the throats of many of the mostly silent or complacent 34 individual donors and did not give real voice to the BWA. Between us, if anyone is, I am a real shareholder and donor and you are not. You strike me as the voice of greed over your Dalekorn Creek. Please note that you started this mess with your vitriolic attacks on the VCC forum about camping and mysterious conspiracies and how you had four votes (proxies) on the EAMG and this was about my attempt to gain power over the Elkhorn takeout. Guess what? Wrong again. Never have I wanted power. I have absolutely never wanted to see power over the Elkhorn congregated in the hands of an individual like you. That is a perfect example of what is wrong with the EAMG. With the council, the voice you have will depend on whether you are the representative of a group like the BWA or the Vikings. Your voice will otherwise be limited. You are a better critic anyway. Isn't that what you do, sit mostly on the sidelines tossing hate filled criticism of those that don't do things your way? And God help anyone that ever gets on your bad side. Dale, you are a force of division. This has to stop. Stop making folks take sides. No one will ever hear me or Barry ask someone to choose. We will not ask others not to boat or camp with us. I challenge you to build community within the boating village and the BWA, not tear it apart. I challenge you to support the BWA efforts to help support AW. We are more than a social club, we are also activists and we have political voice. Let us use this voice and our political capital wisely and we will accomplish really cool stuff for generations of paddlers.
Brent

Brent,

Your answer at the election meeting was that you were unhappy with EAMG but were not planning to address the issue during your presidency. I was satisfied with that answer, not realizing that it was a lie. Here are some more bald-faced lies just from your one post:

1. Dale did not ever say he had 4 votes, nor has he ever had them.
2. Dale has never forced anyone to take sides.
3. Dale has not been sitting on the sidelines, he has certainly done more work at Elkhorn Acres than you will ever do.

And the assertion that "I did not want to have a fight over EAMG and was content to let it sit sideways to be dealt with internally" is probably literally true, you wanted it done secretly behind the scenes without your vaunted "democracy", but it is certainly an attempt at deception.

Dale has never posted anything as hate filled as this message of yours. Do you expect people to just sit there and take it while you attack and lie? Is it divisive to not want to have to camp and boat with people who do this to you?

I have never had, nor ever claimed to have 4 proxies. That was your partners unfounded claim.

I have never asked anybody for their proxy. If I was going to ask anybody for there proxy, it wouldn't be Burgess. I have a pretty good idea of his thoughts on the subject and I know he wouldn't give me proxies. There are several people out there with proxies that I could approach, yet I have not.

That's not what I'm interested in.

If I were truly seeking proxies, as claimed, there is a mechanism in the bylaws of the EAMG by which I could petition for a proxy for work done to the property. I've not, nor will I ask for a proxy in this manner, though I think I would easily be given one, if I asked.

Claiming I started this mess ignores years of history.

The 34 individual donors had their chance to vote and most did. The EAMG is the result.

Your attempt at making this personal is an attempt at distracting folks from the real issues here. A cheap trick, for sure.

I don't believe you to be representing the BWA in this. There has been very little real discussion within the BWA of whether we, as a club, are happy with the EAMG. There has been no vote within the Steering Committee or at any monthly club meetings.

What I ask is, for this issue to be discussed within the individual groups and voted on.

What I'm seeing is, an attempt at railroading this "compromise" without a vote.

Meryl: You are getting personal, not levying mere criticism. Dale did say he had a share given to him by Valerie, that he had Gary Hoaglan's share, that he often exercised Barry Sipple's proxy and that he has represented the Vikings. That is four votes he has wielded. It is about power over the Elkhorn, but not mine. What other donors wanted the EAMG out of the 34? Who are the donor's intent you speak of? I was a donor. You nor Dale were, yet you are the most outspoken of the folks, with close seconds by other non-donors. Why is the EAMG such a mantra for you folks with no stake in it at all. What about the real donors and folks like B6 who more than anyone made this happen? I think everyone can get a good flavor of who is being personally attacked. I have been by you and Dale and any cohort you can spend a day on river with bending their ear. I am used to being attacked by you guys. But, I get four times the accolades for my efforts with the BWA and AW than any posted to the contrary. I will do the best I can for these organizations which is what I have been doing. Sorry you are unhappy. Again, you or Dale can boat or camp with me anytime you like.
Brent

The Vikings have 2 proxies. I have been a Viking rep in the past. As soon as someone emerged as interested in being the Viking rep, I stepped aside.

Does Barry Sipple have a right to allow someone to use his proxy, should he not want to attend a meeting? He chose me for at least one meeting. I don't see a problem, if he doesn't.

Do Gary Hoagland or Valerie Askren have a right to choose someone to represent their interests in the property? They appear to think so. If they think otherwise, or if the group chooses to disallow this type of representation, I'll happily step aside.

I've never had 4 votes at one time, nor have I ever claimed to.

To the best of my knowledge, there have been no close votes within the EAMG. I'm attempting to work within the existing management group. Others have chosen over and over to do otherwise. The camping vote at the February meeting is an example of this.

To the best of my knowledge, no request to the EAMG by any of the individual clubs has ever been denied.

No club has voted on and expressed a dissatisfaction with the way the property is managed. As far as I know, there has been little or no discussion within the Steering Committee or at regular monthly meetings from any of the clubs about dissatisfaction with the way the property is managed within any of the clubs, until now and I'm still not seeing anything resembling a consensus.

Let's vote on it and move on from there.

Here´s some interesting reading on the subject of elkhorn acres I think every BWA member should be familiar with prior to taking a position on this thread:

[www.americanwhitewater.org]
[www.americanwhitewater.org]
[www.americanwhitewater.org]
[www.americanwhitewater.org]

I think you'll find certain things to be true:

The EAMG was agreed upon by all property investors and only became a contention in Barry's article. I've heard no complaint by any other investor beyond Barry and Brent, That doesn't mean there aren't complaints I've just never seen, read or heard them.

There was an attempt to make an issue out of what was presented as the new budget for 2008. the issue was clarified by the EAMG to have only been a proposed budget to be discussed and ammended. Still no complaints other than Barry and Brent.

Mark Singleton (AW) specified that the rift over management be dealt with at the local level. Our two previous presidents (4 years of service) both expressed that there was never dissatifaction with EAMG management prior to the Spring of Brents election into office.

Brent claims that although an agreement was reached to form the EAMG originally not all parties were satisfied (Good news, Bad news here Brent. That's called a democracy, majority rules).
P.S. it's important to note here that a democracy is the model used for the BWA, majority rules. That's how Brent became president, not because some minority group within the club thought he should be.

The EAMG President posted a letter to Property share holders noting that Mark Singleton wished this issue to be resolved locally, a conference call was scheduled and a notice of a meeting to be scheduled in late March to early April was proposed.

The conference call was conducted without representation of the BWA and then followed up later in a private conversation.

The BWA members have never been allowed to vote a club positon on this issue

BWA and AW members who have spoken out against the plan engineered by Barry and Brent have been attacked, criticized, threatened with sensorship, and the original BWA forum which held valuable information about the subject was abandoned and deleted for the formation of the new forum within the AW Site.

A special forum was created and is now administrated by Barry regarding the issue in which he has taken the lead to unveil the change to a new management group. Yet, still no BWA democratic process, or complaints by property investors other than Barry and Brent.

It is becoming painfully obvious that this entire call for change has been well planned over a long time with a complete lack of openess and involvement of the BWA members or the property share holders participation.

I'm willing to bet money that if this fails to pass prior to the end of Brents term as President and Barry's term as Program director this entire issue will fade away the EAMG will continue to manage the property according to the AW guidelines and we'll all have a place to park and paddle.

We, the memebers of the BWA have not been allowed to voice our opinions about the property management and BWA involvement not once in this process, and if we allow ourselves to be railroaded into this new management proposal we will be accomplices in a hostile misjustice to all of the original investors who may not have an issue with current management. That alone will cast a much greater negative image of the BWA than all of the discussions that are now happening.

I for one will not be a part of stripping the rights of the investors from managing the property without a fight (note that I have no investment in teh property, nor EAMG voting privilidges). This nation was founded upon the principle of equal representation for all citizens, much the same as our club is governed on the principle of equal representation of all members.

Prior to any decision I call for a vote among members of the BWA to decide whether or not we approve of and are willing to authorize the formation of a new management structure before we allow it to be forced though much like the taxation thrust upon the founders of our nation.

Ok that's my speech go back to whatever you were doing, but remember this is true for each of us, good or bad "If it's to be it's up to me".

Gmead

What I don't understand still is how EA needs to be a BWA issue. If the BWA wanted the property to be managed by them in the first place, why didn't the BWA solicit donors and have them donate money to the BWA, specifically earmarked for buying the property, and have the BWA then go and buy it and donate it to AW? I repeat, we should NOT be alienating ANYONE willing to put up money towards conserving river access. Not a good idea, IMO.

Here’s my theme / motto: “I just want to park my car there” please don’t mess that up.

Mackenzie and I bought a canoe together and started boating the Elkhorn in the Spring and Summer of 2001. We parked our car and the Elkhorn Acres (EA) takeout. We paid the campground folks to park at the put in. We paddled a dozen or so times a season and we specifically paddled the Elkhorn for 3 to 4 years parking in the EA gravel parking lot the whole time. We weren’t BWAers’ at the time. I assumed canoe Kentucky owned the land or something and let the public use it. We didn’t know who owned EA and we were just glad to use it for an access point for Elkhorn Creek.

This is a thanks to those folks who bought the land for me and you to park there!!!

And Thanks to the folks who have put the infrastructure there for access to the creek even though it was done under the radar.

Now I’m a BWA member of about 4 years or so. I learned much about the piece of property and how it was purchased through a front man at an auction who did not appear to be a boater. Thank YOU sir. I’m also a BWA officer and have been for two years and this is my third. I’m a design professional and have looked at the development of the property. I’ve talked to folks about pavilions and river walk access to the creek and other development improvements to the property. I have heard many opinions for and against the development of the property.

After all these years I have come to the conclusion that I am just glad I can park my car there to take off of Elkhorn creek. Yeah the road and parking could use a little improvement. Maybe a paved trail with gravel dust with a steel boarder (like what they have at the gardens at UK’s arboretum). Yeah maybe a turn around would be nice for a truck and trailer. Yes I pull the BWA canoe trailer in there once a year for the annual Ledgeman canoe trip. But ultimately I just want to park my car there. And I don’t want anything to mess that up like camping or to much naked partying down there. I just want to park my car there.

So let me get this straight. We are thinking of creating a group to manage the property. I thought that’s why EMAG was created? Why recreate something that already exists? What needs to be decided upon that is so important that a small group of individuals have gone out of there way to make EMAG fail. Mowing? Picking up trash? Gravel maintenance? Maybe a porta potty in peak season that floats up during floods (ask Larrimore about his houseboat). If you all want to create a new management group . . . whatever? All I ask is that you don’t do anything to screw up us being able to park there. I still don’t understand what’s so pressing or important that we need to recreate something that already exists.

There are things that could jeopardize this luxury of parking at EA. Camping could piss off the neighbors. Putting up a pavilion could attract local vandalism. Less is more. Put up a pavilion and bring in the locals and their thrash and broken bottles on our path from the take out, ouch! AW pays the taxes, so what are the big issues that this group needs to decide upon. EMAG was scheduled to lay gravel down this winter, right?

Elkhorn Acres, I just want to park there. Please don’t mess that up!

Lastly, I don’t feel the love so much anymore in the BWA. I’ve been turned off by the forum lately. I have been feeling pretty negative about the club ever since the summer BWA presidential election which included the controversial membership buying issue. I’ve got my boating buddies now so why stay in the BWA? For my BWA handbook parking pass for the Elkhorn put in? That is just thinking negatively, right? Can’t we all just get along? Can’t we have fun in our club again? I want to feel warm and fuzzy after leaving meetings. I don’t want to feel the need to step away and pay my dues just so I can get my parking pass for the Elkhorn put in. I want to raise above all this crap that has been going on lately and have a great clinic this spring and feel better about my boating family. How about some positive vibes return to the BWA!

Elkhorn Acres, I just want to park there.

Dave Leachman

Ledgeman

Elkhorn Acres, I just want to park there. I agree with Leachmann. tim

Dear Ledgeman,
Sounds like you could use a hug .
Here it is .. God bless everyone .
Beautiful sunny day on Boone Creek today.. frank