For those that are stepping up through the rivers ... one useful resource may be the Keelhaulers river rating guide. While I personally do not agree with some of their ratings, (the Chattooga Sect IV at 1.8 I think is over rated. It is not 3 points harder than the Upper Ocoee!), for the most part I agree with them. They take into account not only the difficulty of the river, but rescue logistics / remoteness, etc. The Lower Yough at 2' scores a few points above the Pigeon and a bit more above the Nanty and a few below the Lower Ocoee.

The Lower Ocoee is big, and can spank you, but unless you do something really dumb ... like wading in fast current ... you won't die there. The only truly ugly hole that will recirc you more than a time or two is (IMO) Powerhouse ledge, and the only other three that may take you 2-3 cycles are Grumpy ledge hole, Broken Nose ledge hole, and double suck.

The Upper Ocoee is a whole 'nother ball of wax. First there are the trees on the upper part of the river ... while the river is easy there, if you were swimming there could be some problem spots. Then there are the deadly sieves ... Alien boof, and Blue Holes. While no one has died that I know of in the Blue Holes ... if you were to try to wade there at low flow you could get sucked in and stuck if there is new wood there. I've swam them many times when I worked there when the water was off. At normal flow you would float way over them. The holes on the Olympic course, roach motel are big beater types ... but not the terminal recirc type. Edge of the world ... again 2-3 cycles at most.

I think the Ocoee is big enough to scare off most of the true beginners ... the ones that make mistakes that kill them on lesser rivers like the Nanty. The Russell Fork was a blast at low flow... all the vert and none of the push. I did more improvised creekin moves there in one run than a whole season on a bunch of different runs on other creeks / rivers. I also had fun at 800 there (with my full game face on) and not a lot of fun at 1000. The extra push of 1000 was enough to make me a little too nervous. Doesn't take a lot of flow there to make a huge difference. In contrast to the Ocoee, and like the Upper Gauley, there are many places to die on the RF. Some of them if you are doing everything right ... just in the wrong place. Seeing all the undercuts at low flow is a very sobering experience. We ran into a bunch of local tubers at Fist. They were clueless of course. It was getting late ... and they were just at Fist. Had taken them a long time to get there. I hope they eventually found the railroad tracks. Bet their a$$es are still sore!

I think as you get very familiar with a river ... it seems easy to you but the danger is still there. Maybe the UG for some, or the RF for Brent, and Sect IV or the Ocoee for me. You've got the moves at various levels so nailed you can do it in your sleep ... until one day you get handed a big surprise. That never happened to me on Sect IV, but realize it could have. On the Lower Ocoee last year I got surfed upside down twice in Broken Nose ledge ... eventually worked my way out in the boat, but was not fun. Not sure if what happened to Brent last Fall counts as one of those instances. I was so bug eyed at First Drop that I have no idea of what he did ... just that he was getting surfed hard and then was out ... and I was in the right place at the right time to help and was very glad that I decided to delay my run for a few seconds and not to try to bump him out of the hole... cause we both would have probably been in the water and maybe headed for the ugly swim through 3rd drop! We can never be complacent, particularly on dangerous rivers that have taken, or have the potential to take lives.

Wes

Hanley: lol, fair enuf my friend!
Brent

Wes, that is true and a good example. I was left of my normal center line and trying to keep an eye on our buddy Terry Ratliff who was behind us with a broke paddle sticking up out of his life jacket drew me to where I would not be normally entering the drop. I wasn't focused on the approach, took it for granted that I always had a perfect line and next thing you know, I got surfed. And, you are certainly right about the knowledge one has of the river and doing lines in your sleep. Everywhere, rivers the world over, "if you are still boatin, you are in between swims."
Brent

Well here's the deal, if your interested in going on the trip to the Lower Yough call me on my Cell and leave a message. I 'll be going either way, and I'm pretty certain that those discussing the fatalities on this river will be far to busy paddling something more difficult and dangerous or sitting at their lap tops still blah blahing about the lower Yough.

If ya don't go because of this highjacked thread and have the skils then it's your loss not mine. If you don't have the boat skills then you've made a wise choice.

I'll say this about the trip, everyone has an opinion about every river none of them are totally correct, that IS an area where the AW does a very respectable job as an organization. They offer an objective view of the river and accurate discription and a place for paddlers opinions. So, make up your own mind and if you want to come along do so. My number is in the BWA booklet or private message me.

Mike Molnar,

As for beta on getting the trailer I just now swa your illplaced post about so call me and I arrange to meet you at the storage property Friday after work if you want.

See ya'll

Gmead

Oh Well!

No phone messages, no posts, no takers I guess. We're headed to the Yough later today and will be at the put in around 10:00 - 10:30am if anyone changes their mind.

Have a great weekend, and if it's wet paddle it!

Gmead

Have fun George. Sunday is my wife's birthday, so no weekend long trips for me this weekend.

Allen

I really wanted to make this trip, but the distance wasn't doable for me this weekend. Hope you all have a great time and thanks again for the invite!

Bethany

I really appreciate all the info that came out of this thread. Thank you for sharing it here.
Kim