Regarding Dale's question: Yes, AW is asking for a new management structure. The idea proposed on the call last week was that all interest groups have an equal stake in a consensus-based decision making process that follows AW property guidelines. We are currently in the process of fleshing out the details and will have a follow up call in the next few weeks.

Mark Singleton

Who was the dimwit to said the road was put in the wrong place because of the swell. Get you head out your ass and go see the swell and the pipe through Dave Quarles' road. The swell is continuous from KOC, across EA to Quarles. It did not take much to out do the EAMG with people like this advising them.

Mr. Margavage

I believe the primary liason between the AW and the clubs should fall on the shoulders of the conservation officer. What better position to assure the policies set forth by the AW. further I believe the Club V.P. should be given the responsibility of secondary representative to limit possibilty of conflicts of interest as the V.P.'s authority are more limited than the presidents and they also have a much samller share of club responsibilty.

Gmead

Dale, thanks for the thanks. In this post:

[www.americanwhitewater.org]

Does this mean you will boat with me now?

Meanwhile, the version of history you made up about how AW was given the takeout is wrong. I was at that meeting with Brent, Burg, Ben Newman, Ben Askrin, and Prince and I vividly remember, after some heated discussion and when no agreement looked good, Ben Newman suddenly asked "why don't we give the land to AW"? Simple as that. No one forced anyone into anything.

Common ground was found. We went almost immediately from gloom to zoom - came together and got it done in 3 days. It was intensely awesome.

So you see, AW in fact brought everyone together. Then AW helped make it happen by setting up an account and accepting the tax deductible donations. Hosting online credit card donations, holding the deed, and being there for us every day of the year on the Elkhorn. If you want to thank someone then it should clearly be American Whitewater.

I hope that you and the few others so opposed will come on board and support AW's new council - or at the least offer productive suggestions. Why is this so hard to do? A new consensus based management structure has been put forth by AW. If we work towards agreement on that we'll get from gloom to zoom all over again:-) United we surf. Divided we swim.
barryg

barry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dale, thanks for the thanks. In this post:
>
> [www.americanwhitewater.org]
> ad/send/9,4772,4890/#msg-4890
>
> Does this mean you will boat with me now?
>
> Meanwhile, the version of history you made up
> about how AW was given the takeout is wrong. I
> was at that meeting with Brent, Burg, Ben Newman,
> Ben Askrin, and Prince and I vividly remember,
> after some heated discussion and when no agreement
> looked good, Ben Newman suddenly asked "why don't
> we give the land to AW"? Simple as that. No one
> forced anyone into anything.
>
> Common ground was found. We went almost
> immediately from gloom to zoom - came together and
> got it done in 3 days. It was intensely awesome.

Bring together these individuals and the rest of theinvestors with a vote, gain a majoity for the approval of forming a new management group and then pose the question to the body of the BWA for support. That is what I´m looking for! The democratic process on this issue, not the manipulative behind the scenes discussions with AW and within private groups in the BWA prior to approval by the individuals who put up the money.

I also noted that you mentioned how everyone initially came togather through the AW, Great and that would have been about the time everyone also agreed over the present management arrangements. Remember Gloom to Zoom!

Gmead

I put this on the BWA forum as well. Sorry this is so long but I've been thinking about how I really felt about Elkhorn Acres.

Here’s my theme / motto: “I just want to park my car there” please don’t mess that up.

Mackenzie and I bought a canoe together and started boating the Elkhorn in the Spring and Summer of 2001. We parked our car and the Elkhorn Acres (EA) takeout. We paid the campground folks to park at the put in. We paddled a dozen or so times a season and we specifically paddled the Elkhorn for 3 to 4 years parking in the EA gravel parking lot the whole time. We weren’t BWAers’ at the time. I assumed canoe Kentucky owned the land or something and let the public use it. We didn’t know who owned EA and we were just glad to use it for an access point for Elkhorn Creek.

This is a thanks to those folks who bought the land for me and you to park there!!!

And Thanks to the folks who have put the infrastructure there for access to the creek even though it was done under the radar.

Now I’m a BWA member of about 4 years or so. I learned much about the piece of property and how it was purchased through a front man at an auction who did not appear to be a boater. Thank YOU sir. I’m also a BWA officer and have been for two years and this is my third. I’m a design professional and have looked at the development of the property. I’ve talked to folks about pavilions and river walk access to the creek and other development improvements to the property. I have heard many opinions for and against the development of the property.

After all these years I have come to the conclusion that I am just glad I can park my car there to take off of Elkhorn creek. Yeah the road and parking could use a little improvement. Maybe a paved trail with gravel dust with a steel boarder (like what they have at the gardens at UK’s arboretum). Yeah maybe a turn around would be nice for a truck and trailer. Yes I pull the BWA canoe trailer in there once a year for the annual Ledgeman canoe trip. But ultimately I just want to park my car there. And I don’t want anything to mess that up like camping or to much naked partying down there. I just want to park my car there.

So let me get this straight. We are thinking of creating a group to manage the property. I thought that’s why EMAG was created? Why recreate something that already exists? What needs to be decided upon that is so important that a small group of individuals have gone out of there way to make EMAG fail. Mowing? Picking up trash? Gravel maintenance? Maybe a * porta potty in peak season that floats up during floods. If you all want to create a new management group . . . whatever? All I ask is that you don’t do anything to screw up us being able to park there. I still don’t understand what’s so pressing or important that we need to recreate something that already exists.

There are things that could jeopardize this luxury of parking at EA. Camping could piss off the neighbors. Putting up a pavilion could attract local vandalism. Less is more. Put up a pavilion and bring in the locals and their thrash and broken bottles on our path from the take out, ouch! AW pays the taxes, so what are the big issues that this group needs to decide upon. EMAG was scheduled to lay gravel down this winter, right?

Elkhorn Acres, I just want to park there. Please don’t mess that up!

Lastly, I don’t feel the love so much anymore in the BWA. I’ve been turned off by the forum lately. I have been feeling pretty negative about the club ever since the summer BWA presidential election which included the controversial membership buying issue. I’ve got my boating buddies now so why stay in the BWA? For my BWA handbook parking pass for the Elkhorn put in? That is just thinking negatively, right? Can’t we all just get along? Can’t we have fun in our club again? I want to feel warm and fuzzy after leaving meetings. I don’t want to feel the need to step away and pay my dues just so I can get my parking pass for the Elkhorn put in. I want to raise above all this crap that has been going on lately and have a great clinic this spring and feel better about my boating family. How about some positive vibes return to the BWA!

Elkhorn Acres, I just want to park there.

* You should see Larrimore’s old cabin. That’s what he calls it anyway. It’s an old house boat with pylons that would allow it to float up and stay stationary if the big flood came. We could do this with the porta potty?

Ledgeman

Barry... my thanks to you and the others is sincere. As I've said before... I'm floored and amazed that you guys pulled together to purchase this property.

but... let me get this straight...

Barry, you were a director for AW during the process of buying the property... yet you had not brought up the idea of giving the property to AW?

It was all Ben Newmans idea.

Out of the clear blue.

If the AW compromise was Ben Newmans idea... what entity were you, Brent and Burgess lobbying so hard for in the heated debates?

I love history... I'm finding this quite fascinating.

The thing about history... it's written by the victors.

[www.americanwhitewater.org]

This article, written by you, appears to be mostly accurate(as others who were present will attest) with a little spin towards AW/BWA(fair enough) but more importantly, it spins right past some of the key players.

If the idea to donate this property to AW was actually Ben Newmans idea... why is his name never mentioned? How about Ben Askren, truly one of the key players in all this. His name is never mentioned once, though he is referred to.

Ben Askren and Ben Newman's efforts towards this property were huge, if not the majority effort... yet... their names were never mentioned. They were referred to as being at the all important meeting before the sale and were involved in the heated debate... but never called by name, as were some others, who just happened to be your close friends and just happen to be "on your side".

I genuinely like most all the people involved here... on "both sides"... even those who adamantly disagree with my point of view.

What I don't like is some of the tactics involved in this struggle.

I realize I have recently been a pain in the ass for a few on this thread lately. I'll not apologize for that!

I have but one hope, and that is to see the BWA positively influence the future of boaters and boating through democratic service the honorable conduct.

Personally I don't care who manages the property so long as boaters are allowed access. But I do believe we as boaters share a responsibility to respect our peers actions and rights (fellow BWA and AW members or not). We have an established system of operation, as does the AW and the EAMG. Unless I am mistaken that system is the democratic process in which officers at each organization and at each level represent the wishes of their constituents (above personal interests) in order to insure the welfare of the ultimate resources, the boater, the river, and the environment.

I believe it is the responsibility of each individual entrusted with a position of office to serve the individuals within the organization they represent in a selfless manor placing the interests of the majority as their primary duty.

I am a member of other organizations (both millions strong) that actively practice this principle of operation and rarely if ever experiences deep divisions as have occurred over the Elkhorn Acres property. Yet, both of these organizations yield deep strength and influence over federal, state, local and social policy.

Gmead

Gmead

I am scared to death for the future of the take-out, it won't take too many boathenges and naked bongo parties to get the neighbors up in arms.

I am not. In fact, I feel greatly encouraged that all interested persons that attended the Elkhorn meeting this evening arranged by Zina all want basically the same things. I feel encouraged that there is a spirit to move forward and come together and set aside differences with a vision consistent with AW's published and stated objectives and guidelines. I see the immediate next door neighbor and donor being very involved as well as some of us original donors at the meeting to work with AW and make sure the takeout is a good neighbor and safe and secure access for paddlers. Boaters always change clothes, but, that is where changing rooms come in. So far, naked bongo parties have not been a problem, and under the AW guidelines, I don't image they will. Bottom line is we got access still and everyone wants to work together. I believe the future is bright for the Elkhorn. Let's keep working together.

Brent