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    <title>Elkhorn Creek, KY</title>
    <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/list/send/42/</link>
    <description><![CDATA[A forum for the discussion of issues concerning the management of AW's Elkhorn Creek access by American Whitewater Affiliate Clubs.]]></description>
    <language>EN</language>
    <pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 09:45:32 -0400</pubDate>
    <lastBuildDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 09:45:32 -0400</lastBuildDate>
    <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
    <generator>Phorum 5.1.23</generator>
    <ttl>600</ttl>
    <item>
      <title>Thanks!!</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,14985,14985/#msg-14985</link>
      <author>David Mahoney</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I wanted to thank the kind gentleman (Barry ?) for assisting my son and his friend on Elkhorn Creek yesterday (8/8/09) in trying to locate the missing blue (Heritage) kiyak.  I really appreciate everything you did.  The word got out and it has been located although not retrieved yet.  My niece and her boyfriend plan to retrieve it today.  Thanks again for taking Augie down the creek and helping him.
David M.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,14985,14985/#msg-14985</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 09 Aug 2009 09:45:32 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>AW Council update article</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,11805,11805/#msg-11805</link>
      <author>barry</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Yo Bubba,
Thanks for posting the link to your article about progress on the AW Elkhorn Council in the BWA newsletter over on the BWA Forum. I just read it. Nice job. I only found one error:-)

Here's the link to Bubba's article again:  &quot;Elkhorn Acres Council Update&quot;: http://www.surfky-bwa.org/bowlines/MarchApril09%20Bowlines.pdf 

I'm posting this message over here on the Elkhorn Forum which is open to the public (AW web site registered) to read and post. If you did not receive this message as an automatic email and would like to please send me a pm and I will sign you up.  
barryg]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,11805,11805/#msg-11805</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2009 18:18:01 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,7699/#msg-7699</link>
      <author>mike46molnar</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Amen to that Hanley.  If all those warring factions could put the hatred to rest, for sure we can do the same about some stupid little argument that nobody has the class to lose. . . . . . .]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,7699/#msg-7699</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:13:48 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,7698/#msg-7698</link>
      <author>hanleyk1</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I want to be absolutely clear about my intentions. We can discuss this issue at the steering committee meeting, but I'm not going to let it dominate the entire meeting and I'm going to try to keep discussion on a productive level. For the month of August I am going to request of the club that all discussion of the EA issue be kept off the floor. I feel that the club needs a break from this issue, partly just as a matter of perspective. This club is bigger than this one issue and does not need to be consumed by it. Therefore, any motions that we wish to consider will be brought up in September. I'm sorry if this doesn't sit well with some folks, but I am confident that the issue will still be simmering nicely and waiting for us when we get back to it. 

I want to say something else. I don't expect the main players in this drama to forget the past and start loving each other, but I do think we can reach some form of resolution. The Irish Catholics and the Protestants, the Israelis and the Egyptians, the Israelis and the Palestinians, the Axis powers and the European Allies from WW II, these groups of people had real reasons to hate each other. They suffered massive casualties, bombed and terrorized each other, fought over huge important issues of political freedom, sovereignty and the right to exist and be self-determined. Nonetheless, these groups have searched for and often found common ground and have, in some instances, formed alliances or become part of the same political entity. That doesn't mean that everyone forgave everyone else and forgot about their missing limbs and/or dead friends and family, but it does mean that as a group they moved beyond their hatred of each other and found common ground. 

Surely we can do the same. Surely I am not naive to think that we can get beyond the petty differences that pepper the history of this issue and figure out how to resolve it for the future. I would be ashamed to discover otherwise.

                                 Hanley]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,7698/#msg-7698</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:05:01 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,7636/#msg-7636</link>
      <author>leachman</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Yes, I will take on the task upon the BWA deciding that the conservation officer is to take on that role.  The steering committee should come up with a recommendation to the club and the club should decide on the proposal (Hanley should we talk about this on the Steering Committee forum).  Now that the BWA has decided to move forward with ELC there should be no more debate at the meetings.  That is my hope that the debate is curbed since the decision has been made and our president is pretty adamant about not discussing EA.  I’m not saying we cant or anything.  I’m an optimist and I hope we can move forward in a positive way.

I have not looked at AW proposal lately but in my mind there needs to be a local AW representative to lead the ELC meetings.  Someone who is not be involved with EA previously or does not have some sort of personal history with the property.

Guys and Gals, FYI, I do not look at this page very much at all.  I only came here because a discussion on the BWA forum.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,7636/#msg-7636</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:04:13 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,7632/#msg-7632</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Probably the first thing we need to do, now that we have decided to move forward with AW's proposal for new management structure and approach is to focus on their proposal and nit pick on it with others from the other representative groups, such as Elkhorn Paddlers and the Vikings and interested donors and develop some dialogue on implementation.  This requires a meeting of these persons at some point, although discussion on this forum would also be fruitful.  On behalf of the BWA, it does seem logical to have our conservation officer, in this case Leachman, be our point man on behalf of the BWA. 

I think Zina's &quot;town hall&quot; meeting approach at the place in Frankfort is a good place to conduct &quot;implementation&quot; discussions for all interested persons to attend, including our &quot;point person&quot;.  I found that those meetings, by and large, demonstrated tremendous consensus on the property and the issues, regardless of the prior political structures attempted.  The AW guidelines seem to satisfy all, so, the council should really be making limited recommendations, conducting basic reporting on management status to AW and the respective clubs, and making the actual arrangements to manage the property which is, primarily, grass cut periodically, garbage picked up and some gravel or pot hole work every few years or so or as needed.  Kinda like we have been doing in the past 9 years - generally on some individuals own initiative.  Issues such as gates, donation boxes, landscaping, changing room improvements and how to best meet AW's requirement (and the neighbors requests) for port a john or other bathroom facilities given the flood zone it is in, - these are all things that the council will address with AW and their respective clubs.

Just some thoughts ya'll.  David, you want this task?  Anyone have feelings one way or the other as to who should be the BWA &quot;point man&quot; if not conservation office?

Brent]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,7632/#msg-7632</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:41:16 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,7605/#msg-7605</link>
      <author>barry</author>
      <description><![CDATA[The BWA has now voted to endorse the AW Council at it's July meeting by voting upon and passing this resolution :

“The club supports BWA involvement with other local paddling groups in building the groundwork organization for a new management group in cooperation with AW. Property management at the local level is important, as is the voice of all members from local paddling groups. Any organized representation should be such that representatives are obligated to express the majority vote of their respective clubs on all management policy.&quot; 

This wonderful development signals a beginning to the next phase toward making the new AW Council a truly effective managing entity. I'm posting in this existing thread on the Elkhorn Forum (instead of the BWA forum) in order to openly continue the discussion about how this might best proceed and to allow input from other interested (non-BWA) paddlers of the Elkhorn to participate in the discussion. 

The BWA resolution makes no mention of who would actually be representing the club on the new Council. As was suggested earlier in this thread the BWA Conservation officer and/or the President seem like logical choices to represent. 

I look forward to everyone's thoughts and discussion on this suggestion and how to move the AW Council from concept to reality. 
barryg]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,7605/#msg-7605</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:04:06 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: April 23 meeting notes</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,5922,5952/#msg-5952</link>
      <author>ezgpaddler</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Zina, 
Thank you so much for recording and posting the notes from the meeting. I greatly appreciate the effort involved and the information being available.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,5922,5952/#msg-5952</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 27 Apr 2008 18:53:17 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: April 23 meeting notes</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,5922,5927/#msg-5927</link>
      <author>mike46molnar</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Excellent job on the notes, Zina.  I wasn't sure you were taking those as well.  I was hoping someone was -  as many excellent points were raised.

Good job, you deserve some credit here,

Mike]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,5922,5927/#msg-5927</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 17:14:42 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>April 23 meeting notes</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,5922,5922/#msg-5922</link>
      <author>paddlezrm</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Elkhorn meeting 4/23/08

[b]Disclaimer[/b]: these are my notes – I’m sure I didn’t catch everything. I welcome additions/corrections from the other attendees.

Attendees:
Brian Sandmann – Vikings and BWA
Dave and Amy Stawicki – Elkhorn Paddlers, EAMG rep for EP, BWA
Hannah Helm – Elkhorn Paddlers
Nancy Moore – Elkhorn Paddlers
Jay Thomas – Bardstown Boaters
David and Kyra Quarles – EAMG, BWA  and neighbors
Anne Chaney – BWA and neighbor
Brent Austin – EAMG, BWA
Mike Molnar – EAMG, BWA
Paul Singleton – paddler and local resident
David Margavage – EAMG, BWA
Zina Merkin – EAMG, BWA
Robert Milgate – BWA

Overall format / summary:
-Brief overview of history of property
-Overview of new management guidelines
-Overview of AW proposal for regional management group consisting of representatives of area paddling clubs and EAMG
-Some confusion over the purpose of the meeting – one attendee thought it was for EAMG to decide about whether to support AW’s proposal, and was frustrated to find out it was not.
- Open discussion about questions and concerns regarding the AW proposal, and any management issues the participants felt needed to be addressed. This was particularly fruitful because of the neighbors being there, as well as a few other Franklin County residents. Several suggestions were made (see list of comments below). 
- Meeting ended with a proposal from Paul Singleton that individuals go back to their groups with a summary of the meeting and ask the groups to vote on whether they support in principle the formation of a regional council, and if so, to appoint/elect a couple of people as members of an interim regional committee to draft out a more detailed proposal / by-laws of the Elkhorn Management Council. The proposed time-line was to have clubs vote on this in May, and if there is support for the idea, have this committee meet for the first time in late May/ early June, with a goal for getting a new group operational by July or so.

Comments from the discussion

 neighbor was concerned about aggressive words on the listserv and hoped it would not translate into aggressive behavior at the takeout
 comment that as far as the property being maintained, the current arrangement seemed to be working ok for now.
 comment that interest within the EAMG has been flagging
 comment that more signage is needed at the site in regard to rules
 neighbor commented that when property was purchased she was worried it wouldn’t be maintained, but feels that it has been well maintained.
 suggestion made that new council have 2 reps plus a back-up from the bigger clubs, as opposed to current suggestion of one rep and one back-up from each group.
 Bardstown Boaters representative (Vice President Jay Thomas) said there was interest in the club to participate. They want the property kept up, and will help.
 comment that there should be no more building on the site
 comment that Vikings just want the place maintained, instead of bickering about it
 concern voiced that under the management guidelines, the part about “unless arrangements are made with AW” created a loophole in the rules about camping, etc.
 neighbors voiced strong opinion against having a pavilion on the property.
 neighbor noted that there have been problems before with dogs left at the property.
 one of the boaters (Sandmann?) suggested that the neighbors should each have a vote on the council, since they are directly affected by what happens at the property and have knowledge of what’s going on there.
 neighbor talked of having to run off wade fishermen many times and said we had to be diligent about policing the property.
 suggested we update the letter in the sheriff’s office describing activities allowed and not allowed and giving Dave and Kyra Quarles, and Anne Chaney authority to ask for vehicles to be towed or people run off.
 suggestion for a sign stating property to be vacated after dark?
 suggestion for a simple chain to be put across the entry, not locked, but a slight deterrent to folks coming on to the property just on impulse or whim.
 suggestion that all the folks go back to their clubs and suggest that
1) the clubs vote on the general principle of the new council and if they want to be involved
2) if they support the general idea,  the clubs each nominate a couple people as interim representatives to flesh out a more specific organizational structure for the regional council.
Those people would be asked to meet in late May or early June, with a goal of the new council being operational by July.
 some discussion of whether Canoe KY or Nathan should be invited/involved, and no conclusion was drawn.
 via email, a comment that however the new council is set up, provisions should be made for how to handle a club’s dissolution, or failure to provide representation, or the formation of a new area club, in terms of how that would affect decision procedures in the council (quorum, majority vote, etc.), so that the council isn’t ever stalled out.

respectfully submitted,]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,5922,5922/#msg-5922</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:10:26 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: April 23 meeting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,5855,5857/#msg-5857</link>
      <author>singleton</author>
      <description><![CDATA[American Whitewater’s River Access Area Management Guidelines

The following was originally posted on March 11:

In our ever developing nation, rivers are becoming increasingly important recreational resources. Many communities have recognized this value by designating their rivers as water trails, blue ways, parks, or open space. Accessible rivers offer children and adults alike valuable contact with nature, and the relationship people form with rivers through recreation can lead to public support for river protection. 

American Whitewater seeks to protect and enhance public access to our nations in a variety of ways. We advocate for public river access areas at every hydro dam we work on. We support state and federal agencies that work on river access issues. We weigh in on river and land management plans that consider river access. We educate paddlers and landowners on river access laws. We encourage responsible enjoyment of rivers that reduces potential conflicts. We collaborate with land owners and managers on management issues and actions. In rare cases, when no other viable solution exists, we will purchase or accept land and collaboratively manage it as a public river access area with the local paddling community. 

American Whitewater Owns: 
• Blackwater River property in Hendricks, WV (since 1997). 
• Watauga River property in Johnson Co, TN (since 1998). 
• Johns Creek property in VA (since 1999) 
• Elkhorn River property in KY (since 2000) 

American Whitewater Manages: 
• Upper Yough River property Sang Run, MD for MD Department of The Environment at $0 per year (since 2001). 

American Whitewater Manages &amp; Leases: 
• Big Sandy River property, WV from Power Company (since 1992) 
• Gauley River Masons Branch property, WV from local landowner (since 1993?) 

Site Management 

American Whitewater’s mission is focused on river stewardship, and river access areas that we manage should reflect this ethic and be fully consistent with our mission. Specifically, the sites should be environmentally protective, safe and enjoyable to visit, respectful of neighbors, and supported by the paddling community that uses the site. To accomplish these goals we have the following management guidelines for the sites we manage: 

Environmental Considerations: 

• Sites should be maintained in a manner that severely restricts erosion. 
• Sites should be landscaped with non-invasive species. 
• Sites should maintain or restore a native riparian vegetation buffer. 
• High use sites may require portable toilets to avoid human waste problems. 
• Vehicular traffic should be confined to acceptable areas. 

Visitor Experience Considerations: 

• Camping is prohibited at sites unless arrangements are made with AW. 
• Commercial use is prohibited at sites unless arrangements are made with AW. 
• Events are prohibited at sites unless arrangements are made with AW. 
• Sites should be kept free of litter. 
• Areas of grass or gravel should be maintained. 
• Vehicles should not be visible from the river if possible. 
• Sites should include minimal development that could fall into disrepair. 
• Pets need to be leashed and attended to. 

Neighborhood Considerations: 

• Sites should include changing facilities as needed. 
• Sites should include signs listing rules of appropriate behavior. 
• Sites should be maintained in aesthetic conditions. 

Local Support Considerations: 

• Paddlers are expected to coordinate and conduct site maintenance with AW. 
• Paddlers are expected to alert AW of any breech of site rules. 
• Paddlers are expected to act responsibly when at the site. 
• Paddlers are expected to support the site through donations and AW membership. 
• Paddlers are expected to keep the site free of litter through regular clean-ups. 

American Whitewater is proud to be able to support stream access through site management and ownership when the need arises. Maintenance of our river access areas is made possible only through close and ongoing collaboration with our members and affiliate clubs. 

For information on any of our river access areas, please contact Kevin Colburn at: Kevin@amwhitewater.org.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,5855,5857/#msg-5857</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:15:21 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: April 23 meeting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,5855,5856/#msg-5856</link>
      <author>singleton</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Text of the letter Zina is referring to is posted below:

March 26, 2008
To: Zina Merkin, President Elkhorn Acres Management Group 
RE: Open letter to the Elkhorn Acres Management Group

The Elkhorn is a huge success story for the paddling community.  That boaters could come together and in 3 days raise sufficient money to buy the property is a remarkable achievement that should be celebrated.  American Whitewater is proud to own the land and collaboratively manage it with the local paddling community.  

While maintenance of the Elkhorn takeout has taken place, American Whitewater feels that an evolutionary change is needed in the management structure to be more inclusive of the paddling community and affiliates club interests.

American Whitewater is interested in property management that is consistent with our mission and guidelines, that meets the broad paddling community’s needs, that results in prompt and regular response to management needs, and is a positive experience for the volunteers contributing to site management.  To meet those objectives we propose the following process for managing the site.

1. We propose the formation of the Elkhorn Leadership Council to organize management activities and advise AW on management decisions of the Elkhorn take out in accordance with AW's property management guidelines. 
2. The ELC will consist of representatives from the Vikings, BWA, Bardstown Boaters, EAMG and Elkhorn Paddlers. Each organization represented in the leadership council would appoint a primary and secondary representative organization in the council who will singularly or together represent the interests of their organization. 
3. The ELC will meet at least quarterly via conference call or in person, and in addition will conduct day-to-day management discussion on the AW Forum.
4. The ELC will organize and implement pre-approved activities (grass moving, gravel additions to road, portable toilet rental, etc)
5. The ELC will advise AW on any proposed management action that a) is not pre-approved, b) is not consistent with the AW guidelines, c) requires AW funding, or d) changes AW's liability associated with the site.  AW will communicate decisions to the ELC for implementation.    
6. Decisions on direct management actions and on management advice are to be made through consensus, when possible. When consensus is not possible, disputes can be resolved by AW based on our management guidelines.
 
The goal of this process is to be more inclusive and open about how the Elkhorn is managed. AW owns the land and has the legal responsibility for the site. Local recommendations, which include all the interest groups, based on consensus would be a very good outcome.


Mark Singleton					Kevin Colburn]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,5855,5856/#msg-5856</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:11:33 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>April 23 meeting</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,5855,5855/#msg-5855</link>
      <author>paddlezrm</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Hello,

Just a reminder of the meeting on April 23, 6:30 to 8 pm at the Franklin County Extension office, 101 Lakeview Court, Frankfort. It's kind of on the edge of the golf course as you run the shuttle.

There will be a (very) brief overview of the history of the property's acquisition for those unfamiliar with it, to provide context for the current situation. 

AW's proposal will be read and discussed, and hopefully lots of good ideas will be floated by people attending. Then those thoughts will be reported back to the various clubs and on this Forum for further discussion. Each club will have to decide whether to accept, reject or amend AW's proposal, and communicate with the other clubs in regard to any amendments.

I will bring large sheets of paper so we can record ideas as they come up.  We will be looking for:

1) list of questions about the proposed form of the new regional council -- what details did the proposal leave out?
2) suggestions of improvements to the proposal
3) concerns about the proposal
4) management issues that individuals or clubs are most concerned about

I will ask Mark Singleton to re-post the proposal here so you can review it before tomorrow night.

thanks,]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,5855,5855/#msg-5855</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:52:05 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Upcoming meetings</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4950,5461/#msg-5461</link>
      <author>mike46molnar</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Huh ?]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4950,5461/#msg-5461</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:30:30 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Upcoming meetings</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4950,5451/#msg-5451</link>
      <author>ezgpaddler</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Stuper Dave: Your killin me with laughter 

to quote Brent &quot;Peace out Dude&quot; LOL!!!]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4950,5451/#msg-5451</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 17:39:07 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: Upcoming meetings</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4950,5445/#msg-5445</link>
      <author>dmargava</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Georgie, for someone who does not boat, nor helped buy or assist with EA, nor ran or held a BWA  office you sure are full of petty bullshit yourself.  Back at ya big boy...]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4950,5445/#msg-5445</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 13:39:37 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: sorry for delay</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,5372,5408/#msg-5408</link>
      <author>paddlezrm</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Here are my  notes -- I am sure they are incomplete, but I hope you can follow them.
The beginning part is where we brainstormed some ideas, and then we stuck post-it dots next to items to indicate what we felt was most important. Each person got 6 dots to work with and could put all six at one idea, or however they wanted to distribute them. The asterisks * stand for the dots.

---------------------------------------------
Notes from EAMG meeting 4/2/2008 held at the Franklin County Extension Office

in attendance:  David Quarles, Zina Merkin, Barry Grimes, Brent Austin, Don Spangler, David Merrifield, David Margavage, Paul Singleton, Dale Perry, Liz Kauffman (Elkhorn Paddlers), Phil Sisk, David Leachman, Brian Sandmann (Viking Canoe Club), George Mead (observer), Robert Milgate (observer).

[i]The list of goals/issues/ideas mentioned (in no particular order)[/i]
- ACCESS TO THE CREEK **
- Vehicles off the road ****
- For local paddlers
- Limit impact on those who live on or near the creek ********
- Not for tourist/commercial use
- Reduce erosion at creek *
- For [b]all[/b] paddlers ***
- to be managed by area clubs *
- buying privately and owning privately ***
- access for boaters specifically ********
- in friendly hands **
- to be able to park without trespassing ***
- less impact on neighbors ****
- less impact on stream ******
- secure and friendly place – friendly to neighbors, environment, boaters
- “model” access point / good example
- [b]Easy[/b] access  ****************
- [b]Public[/b] access

-------------------------------------
[i]The process by which we acquired and donated the land[/i]
- a management group was invoked as one way to manage any loans if they were necessary
- a concern was how to care for the land ****
- initial goal to keep a low profile because of county opposition and zoning issues *
- the whole thing was pulled together very quickly (with lots of holes in communication and in plans for after the purchase.
- some thought the management group was temporary
- some did not think a particular club would take over  **
- some thought BWA would take over
- some thought a group was necessary to make sure someone would be looking after the land when all the excitement was over **
- some questioned the fairness of representation when a minimum donation of $500 was required for a share
- should have a voice for all  ****
-------------------------------------------
[i]other thoughts about management[/i]
- quasi-public space
- separate access needed to eliminate problems/conflicts with other creek user groups, especially being blamed for their trash, etc.
- need to be able to control the property to control problems like trash
- need more involvement by and discussion with AW
--------------------------------------------
[i]Random personal notes/observations[/i]

First of all, I think we all got a chance to really think about what was most important, and that is ACCESS. And we were reminded that the takeout came about because access was threatened (which could conceivably happen again).

Paul brought up the point about how people who were very interested in the takeout felt cut out of the process by the setting of a $500 per “share” threshold, and how he felt it unfairly discriminated against those who didn’t have money.

As the history of the purchase was discussed, we reminded ourselves what a remarkable achievement that was.

It was also clear that as two separate groups gathered money, two separate conversations about the future of the property had been going on, and the two conversations were never well reconciled despite their agreement that donating the land to AW was the appropriate disposition after the auction. And the two slightly different visions have contributed to ongoing misunderstandings and hurt feelings.

It was noted that some of the confusion and misunderstanding wouldn’t have happened if AW had been more involved in setting forth their expectations for property management.

People felt that the collective goals of the individuals matched up pretty well with what AW recently put forth for management guidelines, but that those guidelines had clarified some gray areas or areas in contention. Everyone could accept AW’s guidelines.

There was not anyone in the room who was necessarily against AW’s proposal for a regional management council composed of representatives from 4 clubs and EAMG, but some wanted to move slowly and have a lot of discussion to anticipate future needs and avoid future misunderstandings.

Dave Margavage made a thoughtful point about having changing attitudes about the degree to which the property should represent public access (kids, dogs, picnics, fishing...), attitudes which have evolved as we have seen issues in regard to avoiding problems for the neighbors, making it comfortable and secure for boaters, being able to keep it clean and maintained, etc.

Dave Merrifield made the point that the project had succeeded very well in achieving his goals, to have a safe place to park that did not require trespassing. He feels it has been maintained well and is serving its purpose. He thanked everyone for what they had done toward that success.
----------------------------------------

Thanks everyone, and I hope everyone has fun on the water this weekend!]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,5372,5408/#msg-5408</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 22:24:24 -0400</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>sorry for delay</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,5372,5372/#msg-5372</link>
      <author>paddlezrm</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Hey folks,

Sorry I haven't posted the notes from the meeting yet. I haven't had time to read the posts here, either.

Just a quick thank you to everyone who participated in the meeting on Wednesday. While it got a little heated a couple of times, I certainly gained a lot of understanding and a better sense of what people's concerns are. And it reinforced for me that ultimately *everyone* does have the central purpose of providing a safe and pleasant access point so boaters can more fully enjoy boating. To make an analogy, I think sometimes we don't look downstream far enough in planning our route and are staring at our bows instead, but there is a lot of energy and a lot of good ideas. As long as we keep sight of access and conservation as the point of it all, we'll be ok.

I'll try to transcribe the notes tomorrow.

Zina]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,5372,5372/#msg-5372</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 22:52:08 -0400</pubDate>
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      <title>Re: Upcoming meetings</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4950,5366/#msg-5366</link>
      <author>ezgpaddler</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Brent:
I don´t wish to get into a pissing match over petty details at the moment. I was estimating. I do know that there were at least 5 proxy votes in the room plus however many Dave Merrifield held + the two representatives from the Vikings and Elkhorn paddlers ( 8+2+5+DM thats a rough 50%).

I also don't wish to argue the recent claim regarding legitimacy or illegitimacy of the EAMG, It has existed whether you recognize it or not. The BWA sought approval from that group and the AW (who defferred to the EAMG) over the camping issue just a month or so ago (according to you and Barry and Dave), the BWA voted at your request Brent just last summer to contribute funds to the AW earmarked specifically for the management of the property and to assist the EAMG in that management. Go back to the minute of the meetings and look it up if you don't recall it. I think it's a liitle late (9years) to claim the group as illegitimate considering they (individual representing that group) have accepted near full responsiblity for the management of the property.

I am appaulled that this petty bullshit from Margavege and you continues following such a productive meeting last night.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4950,5366/#msg-5366</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 18:24:59 -0400</pubDate>
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      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5363/#msg-5363</link>
      <author>dmargava</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I guess so Joey, just using your logic. Dale wants some action, no problem.  He poked his finger in my chest at the Gauley for having Barry at the campground and he gave me the finger at the May Steering Committee.  Poke me again Dale or anyone else who fells the need... Get in my face and I'll get in yours.  No more mister nice guy.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5363/#msg-5363</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 16:16:50 -0400</pubDate>
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      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5361/#msg-5361</link>
      <author>jcalder</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Super, Was that comment directed to me or Dale.  Either way George is right, It's not helpful.  And by the way, the SOL was in reference to voting and absentee votes, so I don't think it works here.  Just a point of clarification.  J

From My understanding the meeting was productive in getting the majority of thoughts out.  That is progress to a degree. I anticipate seeing the minutes as I have posted previous.  Maybe one day we all can tolerate each other, obviously not in cyber space though.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5361/#msg-5361</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:58:26 -0400</pubDate>
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      <title>A Huge Thanks to all!</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,5342,5342/#msg-5342</link>
      <author>ezgpaddler</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I wish to pay a huge thanks to all of the people who have invested in the Elkhorn Acres takeout, either through financial contributions to make it possible or through sweat equity to maintain the property and keep it cleaned up. This piece of property is a reflection of the soul of the boating community of the Bluegrass, and a united generous spirit that would forfiet ownership rights to an hier of greater purpose, for the benefit of all who wish to experience the joys so many have shared on such a treasured creek in central Kentucky.

Elkhorn is the first creek I ever paddled, and the one I cut my teeth on. Had it not been for the efforts of those who have made investments and the commitments to up keep I and many ohters would not have the opportunities to improve our skills sufficiently to challenge ourselves on bigger water. Elkhorn is the birth place of paddling for many in the region and many thanks are due for the access provided through Elkhorn Acres and the efforts invested over the past 9 years.

A huge Thanks to everyone of the donors, the EAMG, and everyone who has invested time in river clean ups, strainer removal, and Elkhorn Acres property management.

My thanks are past due!]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,5342,5342/#msg-5342</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 11:29:43 -0400</pubDate>
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      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5340/#msg-5340</link>
      <author>acreekfreak</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Dave, this meeting was poorly attended because it was rushed by you, as well as others. People had their vacations planned out and being as there was not to be any  votes on anything, it was to be an information sharing meeting, there was really no need for them to reschedule the meeting, nor their vacations.

You guys are in such a rush...

To do what?

The takeout is there and isn't going anywhere.

Boaters have a very nice place to park while they're boating. It is the nicest whitewater boating access within 150 miles.

What's the rush?

One of the things that was stressed before this meeting was that it was an information gathering meeting and no votes would be taken, therefore, it was poorly attended.

yet...

there was an attempt to force a vote, even after it was pointed out that no votes were to be taken. It was an attempt at political maneuvering.

All this political crap sucks.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5340/#msg-5340</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:52:44 -0400</pubDate>
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      <title>Re: Upcoming meetings</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4950,5338/#msg-5338</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[George:
Not counting the three club donations of $3,300, there were 34 individual donors that contributed $500 or more.  A number of them like David Quarles, Burgess Carey, Frank Loudermilk, Barry Grimes made donations of multiple of that.  Of that 34 number, 8 of the individual donors were present (to my counting - am I missing 2?) and I am not sure how many actual donor proxies folks held.  Still not sure if the &quot;transferred shares&quot; are proxies, shares subject to revocation, or even properly transferred shares.  The entity claimed to exist today was not envisioned in 1999 and that seems quite clear.  But, it does not matter as long as we all move forward.  The EAMG is only somewhat reflective of the original donors, and only some.  Donors can have voices through representative of the EAMG and their respective clubs, if they choose under the AW proposal.  That honors the donors and gives them an opportunity for increased voice through several organizations, again if they choose to be that interested.  In 10 to 20 years though, the donors will likely not be around as much on the river, certainly much less than they are even today.  It will be AW and it's affiliate and interested clubs that will be there then and that is where this is heading.  But, the EAMG can certainly have a role in this council and it seems the support for this is there.  But, the meeting on the 23rd is certainly another opportunity to get interested folks together.  I just hope we don't have to repeat the same history to give all persons the context of the issues.  I am glad you there last night George and I appreciate you coming up and introducing yourself to me after the meeting.  You are a smart and interested guy and it is good you care enough to delve into the issues and try to understand the history.  I do hope we can go boat sometime.
Brent]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4950,5338/#msg-5338</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:36:41 -0400</pubDate>
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      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5337/#msg-5337</link>
      <author>ezgpaddler</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Was that really helpful Dave?

Last night was about as productive a meeting as anyone could have expected. People were for the most part curtious, and respectful. Common goals were unveiled and discussion occurred about the best way to achieve those goals. another meeting is scheduled 4/23 to hammer out details and everyone is invited.

Lets not move backward now. Some donors were unable to attend for various reasons, ok, thats why there is a second meeting. If they fail to show up twice then the failure of responsibility falls on their shoulders and society moves forward.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5337/#msg-5337</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:33:35 -0400</pubDate>
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      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5336/#msg-5336</link>
      <author>acreekfreak</author>
      <description><![CDATA[You got to speak all you wanted to, because... you don't see the need to wait for someone else to quit talking before you shout over whatever they're trying to say.

Yes... I did try to speak, but there's only so much time at these meetings. You got your time and then some.

Would you have me shout over others as they are attempting to make their points?

That's all well and good for you, but...]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5336/#msg-5336</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:33:02 -0400</pubDate>
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      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5334/#msg-5334</link>
      <author>dmargava</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Spring break!  &quot;Twist it around&quot; - twist what around, they did not show up.  Can I use Joey's SOL line here? Were you there last night, we never heard you express yourself or do you only use the forum to insite your hostile crap?  BTW, No Pavilion, I’m praying for a mosque.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5334/#msg-5334</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:25:54 -0400</pubDate>
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      <title>Re: Upcoming meetings</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4950,5332/#msg-5332</link>
      <author>ezgpaddler</author>
      <description><![CDATA[What I heard from the meeting last night was a consensus of 3 or 4 primary goals for the property from the EAMG donors.

1) Privately owned creek access for all boaters with some limitations as described by current AW guidelines (which have only recently been made available)

2) General concern about property maintenance, and the future of property management for generations to come.

3) Development of a more balanced and equitable share of management voting privileges via equal representation of regional boating clubs (BWA, ElkhornPaddlers, BB, Vikings...) and the donors.

Over all there seemed to be a couple sticky points that most everyone was prepared to overlook for the long term benefit of the whole. No voting occurred last night and I am under the impression that voting will occur either at or around the time of the second scheduled meeting on 4/23, which is open to the general public (just an impression not fact). 

I believe there were 10 donor members, 3 proxy reps., a Vikings rep., a Elkhorn Paddlers rep., and of course a BWA rep., at last nights meeting for a total of 15 voting privilidges (plus those who represented more than one voting privilidge). The general consensus at the meeting did lean toward discussion of a regional management consortium, which is fine provided we continue to pursue the consortium from the basis of an EAMG voting majority.

The meeting represented just short of 50% of the donor voters to the best of my knowledge. I hope that on 4/23 the donor representation will be much higher and provide an undisputable consensus for or against a new regional consortium

My biggest conflict within this process has been failure to afford the donor group a voice in the process. I believe today that the opportunity was at hand last night and will be afforded again in the next meeting. Should those donors not seize the opportunity to be involved they must conceed their right to second quess the outcome of the 4/23 meeting.

I have said this before and I will say it now, I am not against a move toward future management only against trampling those who made this property available, and provided us the luxury of this problem.]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4950,5332/#msg-5332</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:16:25 -0400</pubDate>
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      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5331/#msg-5331</link>
      <author>brentaustin</author>
      <description><![CDATA[That is an easy question to answer Dale:  have a truly representative council of paddler interests just like AW is suggesting, and which, as Bubba reminded us last night, is a reflection of ideas floated by us that are interested. Pavilion or not, which I don't care as long as AW and neighbors are fine with it, has nothing to do with the political structure of the EAMG or it's beginnings.   I think Barry and I have always wanted more voices and representation in this property beyond who has &quot;shares&quot; because of money or connections.  Anyway, I expressed these issues in detail last night as did many others that were there.  I would rather not keep repeating myself.  We probably need that recording posted for interested folks that want to hear about the details of the purchase and the perspectives expressed.  You are right that some folks were on vacation like Burgess and Molnar.  And I think John Foy cares even though he could not make it from TN.  I also failed to mention that Sockeye said he had Gary Hoagland's proxy and Dave Merrifield held proxies too.  They both raised their hands and spoke up.  All one had to do, generally, was raise a hand and those that did, got called on.  Come on Dale, you had plenty of chances to chime in or pose questions.  Why wait for the forum to express your discontent?
Brent]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5331/#msg-5331</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:16:18 -0400</pubDate>
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      <title>Re: BWA Representatives to the Elkhorn council?</title>
      <link>http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5328/#msg-5328</link>
      <author>acreekfreak</author>
      <description><![CDATA[For starters, it's spring break season and some people are vacationing. You can twist that into &quot;they don't care enough to show up&quot;, but that isn't exactly the case.

Not everybody had the chance to say what they wanted last night. I sat in on the meeting and was respectful of others rights to speak. That sometimes means that everybody does not get their turn to speak. I could have attempted to shout over other people, as some others tend to do, though... I don't think that is productive, nor is it a good way to &quot;move forward&quot;.

I was trying to ask my question last night when we ran out of time...

Back to my question...

What do you guys want done so differently that it requires a change management structure?

Pavilion?

What?]]></description>
      <category>Elkhorn Creek, KY</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.americanwhitewater.org//content/Forum/read/send/42,4689,5328/#msg-5328</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 09:49:40 -0400</pubDate>
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